Hey Uncle Bob!

Apologies to all Hebrew speaking peoples but in defence of the Subject line at least it strips off the end of the line and then space pads it to 71 bytes so the it reads right to left which is correct ... or so I think. We'll soon enough find out.

For the record I think this sucks.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- o- o- -o -o o- -o -o -o o- o- -o o- -o o- -o /) /) /) (\ (\ /) (\ (\ (\ /) /) (\ /) (\ /) (\ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - You load sixteen penguins and what do you get?
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)

Hej Maurice!

strips off the end of the line and then space pads it to 71 bytes

To make it easier we could have just stripped out 71 bytes instead of preserving whole words but where is the fun in that? Also vim claims to be able to deal with right to left languages but then that would be a less generic solution.

We'll soon enough find out.

Looks good from this perspective.

For the record I think this sucks.

Amen brother. Keep the faith.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o -o -o o-
(\ (\ (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pinguïns van de Apocalyps
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

On 02 Mar. 2024 19:28, you wrote to Uncle:

Hey Uncle Bob!

Apologies to all Hebrew speaking peoples but in defence of the Subject line at least it strips off the end of the line and then space pads it to 71 bytes so the it reads right to left which is correct ... or so I think. We'll soon enough find out.

For the record I think this sucks.

So.. you're saying the 80char limit sucks?


--- AfterShock/Android 1.7.5
* Origin: Mobile Pixel 3aXL (2:221/1.59)

Hey August!

So.. you're saying the 80char limit sucks?

No.

However CP437 obviosuly sucks no matter how many characters. You can keep it.

Life is good,
Maurice

-o o- o- -o -o -o -o -o o- o- -o -o -o -o -o -o
(\ /) /) (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ /) /) (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - You load sixteen penguins and what do you get?
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)

On Sat, 2 Mar 2024 19:28:40 GMT, Maurice Kinal -> Uncle Bob wrote:

Hey Uncle Bob!

Apologies to all Hebrew speaking peoples but in defence of the Subject line at least it strips off the end of the line and then space pads it
to 71 bytes so the it reads right to left which is correct ... or so I think. We'll soon enough find out.

For the record I think this sucks.

As far as I can tell, all looks good. I just don't know how this type of
FTN software will send it back to you. :)

Regards,
Nick

... "Take my advice, I don't use it anyway."
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)

Hey Nicholas!

As far as I can tell, all looks good. I just don't know how this
type of FTN software will send it back to you. :)

It looks good here. If it added a "Re: ", like some so-called FTN software does, then it would have stripped bytes from the rightmost which in this case is wrong since the rightmost is the beginning not the end. I believe the "Re: " thingy is a QWK standard and not really a FTN standard that I am aware of. I could be wrong about this but I don't believe so.

Bottomline is your software can properly handle utf-8 codes no matter where (msg_header in this case) or the msg_body. You have my seal of approval ... for what it's worth. :-)

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o -o o- -o -o o- -o o- o- o- o- o- o- o- o-
(\ (\ (\ /) (\ (\ /) (\ /) /) /) /) /) /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Wea bið wundrum clibbor. Wolcnu scriðað.
Sorrow is strangely clinging. Clouds glide on.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hej Maurice!

It looks good here.

Almost perfect. It stripped out the leading spaces that ensured proper word wrapping for 72 byte utf-8 strings for right-to-left languages such as Hebrew. Other than that it faithly reproduced the sent Subject.

Should we carry on or have we seen enough?

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

o- -o -o o-
/) (\ (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pinguïns van de Apocalyps
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 04:42:22 GMT
"Maurice Kinal -> Maurice Kinal" <113@464.280.2> wrote:

Should we carry on or have we seen enough?

Sylpheed seems to add the Re: and thus cuts off the text at the beginning of the subject. I don't see where the Re: can be disabled. Personally, I don't like the addition of Re:

As per your question, I think we've seen enough. People who prefer to communicate in Hebrew would simply use the tools that handle it properly, such as systems that support FTN<->nntp+utf8

Wrt to the subject line, users would quickly learn to keep the subject line short.

So.. the fault is not FTN per se. FTN was built to support an English-speaking community. And as you have discovered, just supporting utf-8 is not enough espectially if the the requirement is to support languages that typically require writing/reading right-to-left.

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 00:53:26 GMT
"Maurice Kinal -> August Abolins" <2989@7001.153.1> wrote:

Hey August!

So.. you're saying the 80char limit sucks?

No.

However CP437 obviosuly sucks no matter how many characters. You can keep it.

Yeah.. it sucks for Hebrew. But then, typical FTN message readers/editors are simply not the right tool when needing to communicate in Hebrew. ;)

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hey August!

I think we've seen enough.

Agreed.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- -o o- -o o- -o -o -o -o o- -o o- -o -o o- -o /) (\ /) (\ /) (\ (\ (\ (\ /) (\ /) (\ (\ /) (\ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - Sweet Sixteen Penguins of the Apocalypse.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)

Hey August!

typical FTN message readers/editors are simply not the right tool
when needing to communicate in Hebrew.

I'd add all human based languages including english.

Anyhow, thanks for all the input. I've honestly learned much from this even though it went nowhere fast.

Life is good,
Maurice

o- -o -o -o o- o- -o -o o- o- o- -o o- -o -o -o /) (\ (\ (\ /) /) (\ (\ /) /) /) (\ /) (\ (\ (\ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Fidonet 4K - You load sixteen penguins and what do you get?
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: One of us @ (1:153/7001.2989)

On 03 Mar. 2024 10:08, you wrote to August:

typical FTN message readers/editors are simply not the right tool
when needing to communicate in Hebrew.

I'd add all human based languages including english.

Ftn is a quirky network primary designed to support English. Nothing wrong with that. Along comes ftn<->nntp to facilitate utf-8; and combined with having dedicated echoes for specific languages, that can be fine - case in point, UTF-8 and ESP.ARGENTINA echos. Nothing wrong with that. People simply learn to use the tools and methods that suits them best.

Anyhow, thanks for all the input. I've honestly learned much from this even though it went nowhere fast.

:D



--- AfterShock/Android 1.7.5
* Origin: Mobile Pixel 3aXL (2:221/1.59)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 04:02:38 GMT, Maurice Kinal -> Nicholas Boel wrote:

It looks good here. If it added a "Re: ", like some so-called FTN software does, then it would have stripped bytes from the rightmost
which in this case is wrong since the rightmost is the beginning not the end. I believe the "Re: " thingy is a QWK standard and not really a FTN standard that I am aware of. I could be wrong about this but I don't believe so.

I'm not sure where it's a standard, but it changes the original subject/message, which I don't think is a good thing in any case. Most
software I use here has an option to add or not add "Re: ", and I
disable it everywhere.

Bottomline is your software can properly handle utf-8 codes no matter where (msg_header in this case) or the msg_body. You have my seal of approval ... for what it's worth. :-)

Worth every penny. ;)

Regards,
Nick

... "Take my advice, I don't use it anyway."
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 17:47:50 +0200, August Abolins -> Maurice Kinal wrote:

Sylpheed seems to add the Re: and thus cuts off the text at the
beginning of the subject. I don't see where the Re: can be disabled. Personally, I don't like the addition of Re:

I don't think it's Sylpheed that adds that. There is an option in your smapinntpd.config "nostripre" or something like that. Change that
setting and "Re: " won't be added to replies.

So.. the fault is not FTN per se. FTN was built to support an English-speaking community. And as you have discovered, just supporting utf-8 is not enough espectially if the the requirement is to support languages that typically require writing/reading right-to-left.

But it's kind of satisfying when you can do what wasn't meant to be
done. Isn't it? ;)

Regards,
Nick

... "Take my advice, I don't use it anyway."
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)

Hey Nicholas!

Worth every penny. ;)

For sure.

But it's kind of satisfying when you can do what wasn't meant to
be done. Isn't it? ;)

From Rolling Stones "Saint of Me";

Augustine knew temptation
He loved women, wine, and song
And all the special pleasures
Of doing something wrong

Life is good,
Maurice

-o -o o- o- -o -o -o -o -o -o -o o- o- o- o- o-
(\ (\ /) /) (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ (\ /) /) /) /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ... Wes þu þinum yldrum arfæst symle, fægerwyrde.
Be respectful to your elders always, speaking fair words.
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's Brain - Ladysmith BC, Canada (1:153/7001)

Hello Nicholas Boel!

** On Sunday 03.03.24 - 09:02, Nicholas Boel wrote to August Abolins:

Sylpheed seems to add the Re: and thus cuts off the text at the
beginning of the subject. I don't see where the Re: can be disabled.
Personally, I don't like the addition of Re:

I don't think it's Sylpheed that adds that. There is an option in your smapinntpd.config "nostripre" or something like that. Change that
setting and "Re: " won't be added to replies.

I looked for various versions of that file, and nothing shows
up. :(

Sypheed 3.2.0 here, BTW.

So.. the fault is not FTN per se. FTN was built to support an
English-speaking community. And as you have discovered, just supporting
utf-8 is not enough espectially if the the requirement is to support
languages that typically require writing/reading right-to-left.

But it's kind of satisfying when you can do what wasn't meant to be
done. Isn't it? ;)

I can be impressed with some resourcefulness that goes on. The
"kludge" options in the FTN header is one of those things.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hej August!

I can be impressed with some resourcefulness that goes on. The
"kludge" options in the FTN header is one of those things.

kludges are part of the msg_body not the msg_header. Personally I think they should be turfed.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- -o o-
(\ /) (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pinguïns van de Apocalyps
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

Hello Maurice Kinal!

** On Sunday 03.03.24 - 20:28, Maurice Kinal wrote to August Abolins:

kludges are part of the msg_body not the msg_header. Personally I think they should be turfed.

I thought kludges were otherwise known as control paragraphs
and not displayed as part of the body.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

Hej August!

I thought kludges were otherwise known as control paragraphs and
not displayed as part of the body.

You are correct, except they are still part of the msg_body and not the msg_header, or at least in the packed msg this is so. How your particular application handles them on the local displey is up to your application but the msg_body shouldn't be messed with as far as altering them is concerned. As you have clearly demonstrated with the 8-bit encodings (eg CP437), this isn't always the case and bad things can and do happen.

You can now hang your head in shame. :-)

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o o- -o o-
(\ /) (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pinguïns van de Apocalyps
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 18:56:00 -0500, August Abolins -> Nicholas Boel wrote:

I don't think it's Sylpheed that adds that. There is an option in your
smapinntpd.config "nostripre" or something like that. Change that
setting and "Re: " won't be added to replies.

I looked for various versions of that file, and nothing shows
up. :(

Sypheed 3.2.0 here, BTW.

Sorry, I didn't pay enough attention. It looks like you're using Tommi's
NNTP server. If so, he would have to make that change to his server's configuration file. :)

Regards,
Nick

... "Take my advice, I don't use it anyway."
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 13:47:18 -0600
"Nicholas Boel -> August Abolins" <0@10.154.1> wrote:

Sypheed 3.2.0 here, BTW.

Sorry, I didn't pay enough attention. It looks like you're using Tommi's NNTP server. If so, he would have to make that change to his server's configuration file. :)

Ah, Thx. But a .config change like would apply to *all* users then, right?

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hello Nicholas Boel!

Sypheed 3.2.0 here, BTW.

Sorry, I didn't pay enough attention. It looks like you're using Tommi's NNTP server. If so, he would have to make that change to his server's configuration file. :)

I failed to mention.. that I see Sylpheed changing the subject
by adding the "Re: " to the subject. So, Sylpheed must be the
cause.

--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.58
* Origin: (2:221/1.58)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 21:10:52 GMT
"Maurice Kinal -> August Abolins" <113@464.280.2> wrote:

particular application handles them on the local displey is up to your application but the msg_body shouldn't be messed with as far as altering them is concerned. As you have clearly demonstrated with the 8-bit encodings (eg CP437), this isn't always the case and bad things can and
do happen.

All I can do is use nntp and sylpheed which handles utf8 without issues when preservation of utf8 chars is important, and use something else when plain ascii will suffice.

You can now hang your head in shame. :-)

No shame on my part.. because,

... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pingu�ns van de Apocalyps

..that part with the "�" isn't critical to the message! :D

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

On Mon, 4 Mar 2024 06:31:26 +0200, August Abolins -> Nicholas Boel wrote:

Sorry, I didn't pay enough attention. It looks like you're using Tommi's
NNTP server. If so, he would have to make that change to his server's
configuration file. :)

Ah, Thx. But a .config change like would apply to *all* users then, right?

Yes. However, in this case I wouldn't be against it. Miscellaneous
software adding "Re: " breaks threading by changing the original
subject. I can't imagine that being a good thing.

Regards,
Nick

... "Take my advice, I don't use it anyway."
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:34:00 -0500, August Abolins -> Nicholas Boel wrote:

I failed to mention.. that I see Sylpheed changing the subject
by adding the "Re: " to the subject. So, Sylpheed must be the
cause.

That's possible. If you can't disable it in the client yourself, the
setting I mentioned on the server side will strip/remove it.

Regards,
Nick

... "Take my advice, I don't use it anyway."
--- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:115.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderb
* Origin: _thePharcyde distribution system (Wisconsin) (1:154/10)

Hej August!

that part with the "�" isn't critical to the message! :D

Says you! Tell that to the Dutch.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

o- -o -o o-
/) (\ (\ /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pinguïns van de Apocalyps
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

On Sun, 3 Mar 2024 23:35:14 GMT
"Maurice Kinal -> August Abolins" <113@464.280.2> wrote:

that part with the "�" isn't critical to the message! :D

Says you! Tell that to the Dutch.

As far as I'm concerned, that part wasn't in the official body of the commuicative message. :D A tagline string is an optional decoration completely separate.

Bet.. kad man būtu jāizpaužas latviski, man būtu jāveic pasākumi Silfeņa/NNTP izmantošanai.

---
* Origin: nntp://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hej August!

<Esc>:read !trans -b -no-ansi -s lv -t en "kad man būtu jāizpaužas latviski, man būtu jāveic pasākumi Silfeņa/NNTP izmantošanai."
Did you mean: kad man būtu jāizpaužas latviski, man būtu jāveic pasākumi Siliņa/NNTP izmantošanai.
when I would have to express myself in Latvian, I would have to take measures to use Silfenis/NNTP.

It looks like 'trans' didn't care much for "Silfeņa". Other than that it looks to be accurate.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o -o o- -o
(\ (\ /) (\
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pinguïns van de Apocalyps
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)

On Mon, 4 Mar 2024 00:56:16 GMT
"Maurice Kinal -> August Abolins" <113@464.280.2> wrote:

It looks like 'trans' didn't care much for "Silfeņa". Other than that
it looks to be accurate.

Yeah.. I kinda mispelled Sylpheed, as Silfeņa ..but even the correct spelling (perhaps, Silfeda) would have been an untranslatable thing anyway.

So... what is this trans that you are using? Is it just a commandline-based translation function where you just copy-paste the text into it in a linux terminal?

I did a little hunting around on the internet and found a shell called trans, but that would be a different beast, right?

---
* Origin: news://news.fidonet.fi (2:221/6.0)

Hej August!

So... what is this trans that you are using?

<Esc>:read !trans -V -no-ansi | sed 's/^/ > /'

Translate Shell 0.9.7.1

platform Linux
terminal type linux
bi-di emulator [N/A]
gawk (GNU Awk) 5.3.0
fribidi (GNU FriBidi) 1.0.12
audio player [NOT INSTALLED]
terminal pager less
web browser xdg-open
user locale en_CA.utf8 (English)
host language en
source language auto
target language en
translation engine auto
proxy [NONE]
user-agent Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/104.0.0.0 Safari/537.36 Edg/104.0.1293.54
ip version [DEFAULT]
theme default
init file [NONE]

Report bugs to: https://github.com/soimort/translate-shell/issues

I got the above version from github which I created a v0.9.7.1 tarball from. I have been toying with it using vim's drop to shell command (!) and was thinking it would make an interesting internetted BBS door but haven't really done anything that dramatic ... yet. Looking at the 'user-agent:' line I get the impression it will play nicely with the correct versions of many web browsers. As you can tell from my call from vim that I am turing off ansi support, but it does work on the 'linux' terminal, which in this case is a full sized 1080p terminal capable of framebuffer graphics if that is something of interest. Also works in 'tmux' which I use to split the terminal into smaller terminals that I can bounce around. No need for a GUI which I currently don't bother with on the EuroPoint.

Anyhow it works great for creating text documents in other languages which is how I've been testing utf-8 capabilities. At the moment it looks like right-to-left languages (eg Hebrew) are displaying some proper word wrapping issues which is my latest test as you have witnessed. I am not sure I'll be taking 'trans' out for a spin other than with vim. Also note I don't have audio turned on the EuroPoint. I haven't tested that functionality but I might on my main system that has all the toys including xorg and firefox, which it *should* play nicely with ... I think. I am not a big fan of GUI apps so I have my doubts it'll get that far. The BBS door idea has a much better chance of actually happening.

Het leven is goed,
Maurice

-o -o o- o-
(\ (\ /) /)
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
... Fidonet 1080p - De vier pinguïns van de Apocalyps
--- GNU bash, version 5.2.26(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
* Origin: Little Mikey's EuroPoint @ (2:280/464.113)