My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the
processor, main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need
to upgrade but I have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use
that I do not want to just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone)
suggest that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling
browser pages or running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
Thanks in advance,
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the
processor, main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need
to upgrade but I have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use
that I do not want to just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone)
suggest that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling
browser pages or running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
Thanks in advance,
On 10/26/23 05:12 PM, this is what pinnerite wrote:Bare metal didn't saw Windows since 2008. On my machines...
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the processor,Not much demand here. I didn't hear "games" so you've got a simple task.
main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need to upgrade but I >> have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use that I do not want to >> just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone) suggest >> that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling browser pages or >> running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
Thanks in advance,
Not sure what case you get but some can hold a few drives. You can put the 2TB's in there for bulk data. Of course you're putting in an SSD for boot.
I have a 500G and my Linux is 100G, Windows 100G (optional), and of course Windows eats up a few with those stupid extra partitions, and the remainder is space for the virtual machine drives. VMs run much faster if the data is on the SSD, it is some wear but I don't run them much.
A power supply to support the 4TB spinners. One could be simple archival for backup images, several copies.
Linux doesn't take that much room. I have 31G and I've got a pretty full system. No games, so that might add a few.
All the other i/o stuff is as needed.
On 2023-10-26, Big Al <Bears@invalid.com> wrote:
On 10/26/23 05:12 PM, this is what pinnerite wrote:Bare metal didn't saw Windows since 2008. On my machines...
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the processor, >>> main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need to upgrade but INot much demand here. I didn't hear "games" so you've got a simple task.
have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use that I do not want to
just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone) suggest >>> that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling browser pages or >>> running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
Thanks in advance,
Not sure what case you get but some can hold a few drives. You can put the >> 2TB's in there for bulk data. Of course you're putting in an SSD for boot. >> I have a 500G and my Linux is 100G, Windows 100G (optional), and of course >> Windows eats up a few with those stupid extra partitions, and the remainder >> is space for the virtual machine drives. VMs run much faster if the data is
on the SSD, it is some wear but I don't run them much.
A power supply to support the 4TB spinners. One could be simple archival >> for backup images, several copies.
Linux doesn't take that much room. I have 31G and I've got a pretty full
system. No games, so that might add a few.
All the other i/o stuff is as needed.
I had to use it in VM. Because of last job, before I got retired...
Project manager, allowed me to port it to Linux, but that was major
work, and I didn't have enough time :P
Regarding games, I have ~450 and playing exclusively on Linux.
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the
processor, main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need
to upgrade but I have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use
that I do not want to just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone)
suggest that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling
browser pages or running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
Thanks in advance,
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the
processor, main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need
to upgrade but I have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use
that I do not want to just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone)
suggest that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling
browser pages or running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> writes:
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the
processor, main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need
to upgrade but I have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use
that I do not want to just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone)
suggest that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling
browser pages or running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
An AM4 board with a Ryzen 5600G and as much DDR4 RAM as you need, plus
an M.2 NVME SSD. You may or may not need to upgrade the power supply.
For a little more money, you can get the 5700G (8 cores instead of 6).
If you want to spend more money, you can buy an AM5 board (make sure
you get enough SATA ports for your HDD), a Ryzen 7600, DDR5 RAM, and
again an M.2 NVME SSD.
With a higher budget, you can put in any AM5 CPU, up to the 7950X3D,
but many of them come without cooler, so you may have to buy that
separately.
The AM5 CPUs have weaker graphics than the 5600G and 5700G, but enough
for scrolling browser pages.
- anton
On 10/26/23 06:23 PM, this is what Branimir Maksimovic wrote:Some 400 Steam, around 50 GOG, and few Epic.
On 2023-10-26, Big Al <Bears@invalid.com> wrote:I'd like to see that list but not here.
On 10/26/23 05:12 PM, this is what pinnerite wrote:Bare metal didn't saw Windows since 2008. On my machines...
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the processor, >>>> main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need to upgrade but INot much demand here. I didn't hear "games" so you've got a simple task. >>>
have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use that I do not want to
just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards. >>>>
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone) suggest
that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling browser pages or >>>> running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
Thanks in advance,
Not sure what case you get but some can hold a few drives. You can put the
2TB's in there for bulk data. Of course you're putting in an SSD for boot. >>> I have a 500G and my Linux is 100G, Windows 100G (optional), and of course >>> Windows eats up a few with those stupid extra partitions, and the remainder >>> is space for the virtual machine drives. VMs run much faster if the data is
on the SSD, it is some wear but I don't run them much.
A power supply to support the 4TB spinners. One could be simple archival >>> for backup images, several copies.
Linux doesn't take that much room. I have 31G and I've got a pretty full >>> system. No games, so that might add a few.
All the other i/o stuff is as needed.
I had to use it in VM. Because of last job, before I got retired...
Project manager, allowed me to port it to Linux, but that was major
work, and I didn't have enough time :P
Regarding games, I have ~450 and playing exclusively on Linux.
Are a lot on Steam?
On 2023-10-26, Big Al <Bears@invalid.com> wrote:
On 10/26/23 06:23 PM, this is what Branimir Maksimovic wrote:Some 400 Steam, around 50 GOG, and few Epic.
On 2023-10-26, Big Al <Bears@invalid.com> wrote:I'd like to see that list but not here.
On 10/26/23 05:12 PM, this is what pinnerite wrote:Bare metal didn't saw Windows since 2008. On my machines...
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the processor, >>>>> main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need to upgrade but INot much demand here. I didn't hear "games" so you've got a simple task. >>>>
have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use that I do not want to
just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards. >>>>>
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone) suggest
that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling browser pages or
running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
Thanks in advance,
Not sure what case you get but some can hold a few drives. You can put the
2TB's in there for bulk data. Of course you're putting in an SSD for boot.
I have a 500G and my Linux is 100G, Windows 100G (optional), and of course >>>> Windows eats up a few with those stupid extra partitions, and the remainder
is space for the virtual machine drives. VMs run much faster if the data is
on the SSD, it is some wear but I don't run them much.
A power supply to support the 4TB spinners. One could be simple archival >>>> for backup images, several copies.
Linux doesn't take that much room. I have 31G and I've got a pretty full >>>> system. No games, so that might add a few.
All the other i/o stuff is as needed.
I had to use it in VM. Because of last job, before I got retired...
Project manager, allowed me to port it to Linux, but that was major
work, and I didn't have enough time :P
Regarding games, I have ~450 and playing exclusively on Linux.
Are a lot on Steam?
Not much demand here. I didn't hear "games" so you've got a simple task.
On 10/26/23 16:40, Big Al wrote:
[snip]
Not much demand here. I didn't hear "games" so you've got a simple task.
Virtual Machines can take a lot of RAM. Also, they're slow if you don't have a NVMe for storage.
[snip]
On 10/27/2023 4:10 AM, Anton Ertl wrote:
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> writes:
My main desktop is showing its age. Some parts are new but the
processor, main board and graphics cards are over 16 years old. I need
to upgrade but I have several 2TB hard drives that have seen little use
that I do not want to just throw away.
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
Given those perameters, what combination of bits would you (anyone)
suggest that would give me decent performance when say, scrolling
browser pages or running a virtual machine on the main (Linux) host?
An AM4 board with a Ryzen 5600G and as much DDR4 RAM as you need, plus
an M.2 NVME SSD. You may or may not need to upgrade the power supply.
For a little more money, you can get the 5700G (8 cores instead of 6).
If you want to spend more money, you can buy an AM5 board (make sure
you get enough SATA ports for your HDD), a Ryzen 7600, DDR5 RAM, and
again an M.2 NVME SSD.
With a higher budget, you can put in any AM5 CPU, up to the 7950X3D,
but many of them come without cooler, so you may have to buy that separately.
The AM5 CPUs have weaker graphics than the 5600G and 5700G, but enough
for scrolling browser pages.
- anton
OK, I was mistaken. I finally found a list of CPUs with actual graphics data. AMD doesn't like to put that data in adverts, because it pisses off overclockers.
The 7000 series (with one recent exception), have 2 cores.
Table not complete. Had to search around. First three processors have an extra L3 die added.
This is not a complete shopping list, just a mix of mostly AM5, with the two AM4 cheap ones at the bottom.
The AM4 platform makes for a cheaper build.
https://www.amd.com/en/processors/ryzen https://web.archive.org/web/20211212005535/https://www.amd.com/en/processors/ryzen
https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5600g https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-7-5700g
Model C T Boost Clock Base Clock Thermal Solution (PIB) Graphics Cores TDP L2 L3
Ryzen 9 7950X3D 16 32 Up to 5.7GHz 4.2GHz Not Included 2 120W 16MB 128MB
Ryzen 9 7900X3D 12 24 Up to 5.6GHz 4.4GHz Not included 2 120W 12MB 128MB
Ryzen 7 7800X3D 8 16 Up to 5.0GHz 4.2GHz Not included 2 120W 8MB 96MB
Ryzen 9 7950X 16 32 Up to 5.7GHz 4.5GHz Not included 2 170W 16MB 64MB
Ryzen 9 7900X 12 24 Up to 5.6GHz 4.7GHz Not included 2 170W 12MB 64MB
Ryzen 9 7900 12 24 Up to 5.4GHz 3.7GHz AMD Wraith Prism 2 65W 12MB 64MB
Ryzen 7 7700X 8 16 Up to 5.4GHz 4.5GHz Not included 2 105W 8MB 32MB
Ryzen 7 7700 8 16 Up to 5.3GHz 3.8GHz AMD Wraith Prism 2 65W 8MB 32MB
Ryzen 5 7600X 6 12 Up to 5.3GHz 4.7GHz Not included 2 105W 6MB 32MB
Ryzen 5 7600 6 12 Up to 5.1GHz 3.8GHz AMD Wraith Stealth 2 65W 6MB 32MB
Ryzen 5 7500F 6 12 Up to 5.0GHz 3.7GHz AMD Wraith Stealth --- 65W 6MB 32MB
Ryzen 7 5700G 8 16 Up to 4.6GHz 3.8GHz Wraith Stealth 8 65W 4MB 16MB
Ryzen 5 5600G 6 12 Up to 4.4GHz 3.9GHz Wraith Stealth 7 65W 3MB 16MB
The graphics strength pattern is weird, and makes me suspect a benchmark issue on 7950X.
Naturally, the 7000 series would use different graphics core series, than the 5000 series
(RDNA versus Zen?).
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+Ryzen+9+7950X3D+16-Core&id=4761
Average G3D Mark: 1570 Average G2D Mark: 536
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+Ryzen+9+7950X+16-Core&id=4652
Average G3D Mark: 5744 Average G2D Mark: 652
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+Ryzen+9+7900X+12-Core&id=4659
Average G3D Mark: 3297 Average G2D Mark: 611
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+Ryzen+9+7900+12-Core&id=4716
Average G3D Mark: 3263 Average G2D Mark: 602
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Ryzen+7+5700G+with+Radeon+Graphics&id=4405
Average G3D Mark: 2808 Average G2D Mark: 815
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Ryzen+5+5600G+with+Radeon+Graphics&id=4406
Average G3D Mark: 2574 Average G2D Mark: 779
For comparison, the 1050 Ti video card with 4GB VRAM, in this machine (fan doesn't spin when idle!).
Not really a gamer card, it's the "buzzword compliant" card from way back.
https://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=GeForce+GTX+1050+Ti&id=3595
Average G3D Mark: 6303 Average G2D Mark: 650
*******
And yes, of course the CPUs have L1 cache, but who can be bothered to look that up.
If placed in the top table, this one would be listed as L2 8MB and L3 64MB.
5950X lists this in CPUZ as: L1 Data 16 x 32KB 8-way
L1 Instruction 16 x 32KB 8-way
L2 16 x 512KB 8-way
L3 2 x 32MB 16-way
Image of a 7950X in CPUZ. The L2 is twice as big. L2 and L3 are likely unified.
https://valid.x86.fr/cache/screenshot/tdz6br.png
Due to the spatial arrangement of cache, the behavior of cache is
segmented and might not "feel" as big as if the cache was in one
giant square on the chip. the bandwidth to the various caches may be
a limitation.
*******
When you get your new CPU, what generational change can you see ?
Memtest 6 shows some numbers (both machines tested with same version).
Due to throttles in software, new stuff never feels that much faster in the main OS.
Optiplex 780 E8400 5950X
L1 40GB/sec 270GB/sec
L2 18.5GB/sec 128GB/sec
L3 --- 48GB/sec
DRAM 14.9GB DDR3 @ 3.85GB/sec 15.8GB/sec (DDR4)
The cache only makes a big difference, in a few games, or when
using a multi-threaded compressor. For a lot of other uses,
those big L3s just keep the room warm.
Paul
Thanks for the data. I fancy the 5700G but I need to control two
screens. I used the onboard graphics of the Phenom II until I found
that any action on one screen would affect whatever was happening on
the other.
To overcome that I disabled the onboard graphics and employed two
identical Radeon HD 4350 graphics cards.
That worked reasonably well for 16 years ago but I am hoping for an >improvement. Will the 5700G's graphics serve two independent screens?
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> writes:
Thanks for the data. I fancy the 5700G but I need to control two
screens. I used the onboard graphics of the Phenom II until I found
that any action on one screen would affect whatever was happening on
the other.
To overcome that I disabled the onboard graphics and employed two
identical Radeon HD 4350 graphics cards.
That worked reasonably well for 16 years ago but I am hoping for an >improvement. Will the 5700G's graphics serve two independent screens?
You have to buy a motherboard that supports the graphics connectors
you are interested in, and there are some limitations (see <https://superuser.com/questions/1682414/5700g-reduces-refresh-rate-as-i-add-displays-what-limitation-am-i-hitting-here>),
but two 4K displays at 60Hz are possible (according to the web site
above).
- anton
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 21:54:31 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> writes:
Thanks for the data. I fancy the 5700G but I need to control two
screens. I used the onboard graphics of the Phenom II until I found
that any action on one screen would affect whatever was happening on
the other.
To overcome that I disabled the onboard graphics and employed two
identical Radeon HD 4350 graphics cards.
That worked reasonably well for 16 years ago but I am hoping for an
improvement. Will the 5700G's graphics serve two independent screens?
You have to buy a motherboard that supports the graphics connectors
you are interested in, and there are some limitations (see
<https://superuser.com/questions/1682414/5700g-reduces-refresh-rate-as-i-add-displays-what-limitation-am-i-hitting-here>),
but two 4K displays at 60Hz are possible (according to the web site
above).
- anton
I am now thinking 2 x RX550 as my two identical HP screens are driven
by HDMI leads. That said, I wonder if I can find a CPU without on-board graphics?
On 10/29/2023 3:49 PM, pinnerite wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 21:54:31 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> writes:
Thanks for the data. I fancy the 5700G but I need to control two
screens. I used the onboard graphics of the Phenom II until I found
that any action on one screen would affect whatever was happening on
the other.
To overcome that I disabled the onboard graphics and employed two
identical Radeon HD 4350 graphics cards.
That worked reasonably well for 16 years ago but I am hoping for an
improvement. Will the 5700G's graphics serve two independent screens?
You have to buy a motherboard that supports the graphics connectors
you are interested in, and there are some limitations (see
<https://superuser.com/questions/1682414/5700g-reduces-refresh-rate-as-i-add-displays-what-limitation-am-i-hitting-here>),
but two 4K displays at 60Hz are possible (according to the web site
above).
- anton
I am now thinking 2 x RX550 as my two identical HP screens are driven
by HDMI leads. That said, I wonder if I can find a CPU without on-board
graphics?
Just don't get the G series. Eg. 5600 vs 5600G.
I am now thinking 2 x RX550 as my two identical HP screens are driven
by HDMI leads.
That said, I wonder if I can find a CPU without on-board
graphics?
On 10/29/2023 7:20 PM, red floyd wrote:
On 10/29/2023 3:49 PM, pinnerite wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 21:54:31 GMT
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) wrote:
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> writes:
Thanks for the data. I fancy the 5700G but I need to control twoYou have to buy a motherboard that supports the graphics connectors
screens. I used the onboard graphics of the Phenom II until I found
that any action on one screen would affect whatever was happening on >>>> the other.
To overcome that I disabled the onboard graphics and employed two
identical Radeon HD 4350 graphics cards.
That worked reasonably well for 16 years ago but I am hoping for an
improvement. Will the 5700G's graphics serve two independent screens? >>>
you are interested in, and there are some limitations (see
<https://superuser.com/questions/1682414/5700g-reduces-refresh-rate-as-i-add-displays-what-limitation-am-i-hitting-here>),
but two 4K displays at 60Hz are possible (according to the web site
above).
- anton
I am now thinking 2 x RX550 as my two identical HP screens are driven
by HDMI leads. That said, I wonder if I can find a CPU without on-board
graphics?
Just don't get the G series. Eg. 5600 vs 5600G.
On integrated graphics, there is only so much crossbar bandwidth
available, before it unduly restricts the CPU access to memory.
The OPs monitors aren't near that point. Not even close.
The limitation could be encoded in some driver, or perhaps there
is a real crossbar problem above a certain point.
Whereas separate graphics cards, starting at $200+ with their own
VRAM, will have a lot more VRAM bandwidth. And the RAM access pattern is different (more independent fetches simultaneously).
Although they did find a case very recently, where a 48" wide gamer
monitor running at something stupid like 240Hz, the top end video
card could only drive it at half of the whizzy refresh rate. Oh, the
horror :-) What will the other kids think, if I can only go at
120Hz. I will be a laughingstock.
The cable standards, have to cover deep-color, high-refresh,
and high-resolution, all at the same time. The poor crossbar in
the video subsystem, is just a-melting. Every time you say
"yes, you can do X @ Y" , the other person will say "OK, now do it at 240Hz".
*******
Displayport to HDMI adaptation, is a passive adapter.
If a motherboard comes with Displayport and HDMI, you can
use a Displayport to HDMI cable or dongle to make the necessary
two HDMIs.
DP++ -----> HDMI (passive -- this is the modern case)
DP -----> HDMI (requires active adapter, maybe year 2008 or so)
(In this case, the DP does not have an HDMI-like mode inside)
That means that modern motherboards would be the first case,
and the adapter should be pretty cheap.
(A passive adapter for nine bucks)
https://www.amazon.com/DisplayPort-Adapter-Converter-Gold-Plated-Compatible/dp/B017Q8ZVWK/
Going in the other direction, from HDMI to DP, is twenty two bucks.
A lot has changed since the hundred-bucks-per-adapter days (some of the active adapters used to be stupid money).
*******
I don't think 2 x RX550 is really necessary.
But it's the OPs money.
As to what the video card mobo slot(s) bandwidth is, you have to
check the block diagram and "spot the slot wiring". This is AM5.
https://www.angstronomics.com/p/site-launch-exclusive-all-the-juicy
The top video slot, usually has the best bandwidth.
The lower video slot, is usually inferior (x4 lanes instead of x16 lanes).
In many cases, still sufficient to run a card. At least, compared to the
PCIe slots we used to get.
I don't know if x8/x8 splits are all that popular with the mobo makers, although from a practical perspective, it's still plenty good enough.
The thing about PCIe Rev5, is it needs "re-drivers" to get across
the motherboard. The loss at that frequency is getting too high, so
the signals need regeneration.
Is there such a thing as "too fast". Hmmm. A PCIe rev5 NVMe runs
pretty hot and uses the electricity. They recommend a heatsink
on them, to reduce the risk of thermal throttling. If there are
chips on the underside of the NVMe, they'll be "warm". But it is
likely the controller chip, on top, which is hot. Some of the
heatsinks offered, are borderline silly (heatpipes).
But this will not prevent a PCIe Rev6 motherboard from showing up :-)
Bring a fat wallet.
Regarding the potential for PCIe Rev5 NVMe slots, check the slot
size carefully, to see if it is backward compatible with older
["inferior"] sticks. They were initially proposing the connector
would be a different width. If that is a problem, one of the
other NVMe slots on the mobo is likely to be a standard one.
Paul
Historically I have preferred AMD processors and their graphics cards.
pinnerite <pinnerite@gmail.com> writes:
I am now thinking 2 x RX550 as my two identical HP screens are driven
by HDMI leads.
Needless expense and two additional error sources.
AM4 boards with two HDMI ports are rare, buit you can get one with one
HDMI port and one DisplayPort, and then use a DP->HDMI cable (or maybe
the screens have alternative ports, then you don't need a special
cable).
That said, I wonder if I can find a CPU without on-board
graphics?
Certainly. All Ryzens <7000 without "G"/"GE". But it does not save
money. If you really have trouble driving all your screens with the
5700G graphics (which I don't expect), you can use it to drive one,
and buy a graphics card for the other. Or use the graphics card for
both (which usually is also possible).
- anton
Sysop: | DaiTengu |
---|---|
Location: | Appleton, WI |
Users: | 915 |
Nodes: | 10 (1 / 9) |
Uptime: | 23:22:32 |
Calls: | 12,168 |
Files: | 186,521 |
Messages: | 2,234,006 |