Today, the rate of change is not as dramatic, so a delay doesn't save as
much money. PCs have long since passed the point of "good enough" for mainstream tasks such that we could replace desktop iron with
ever-lighter laptops. As such, there's a reduced demand for high
performance because its no longer this month's cutting edge new stuff: everyone can afford pretty high flying stuff without much drama.
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
Nope.
Because you haven't even supported your first claim that:
'Jobs wanted to give people the IMPRESSION that their machines were
premium by charging more.'
Actually building premium machines isn't giving people an impression
that they're premium.
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
On 2025-12-16 12:11, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/16/25 2:46 PM, Alan wrote:
It is a curiosity why an operative like you is so loyal to Apple.
"Operative" is it now?
You have said some things to indicate it, yeah. You're a power user
who prefers Apple. It's not something that grows on trees.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLO!
You're an expert on computer user demographics now?
I wouldn't say that. But I've gotten to know you, a bit.
You know nothing.
Clearly, you never had to use a Timex-Sinclair keyboard! ;-) Apple has
been more solidly built, and they also have a better dealership network
for providing customer support (which isn't free), long before they
started their own retail stores.
On 2025-12-15 9:44 p.m., Alan wrote:
Jobs wanted to give people the impression that their machines were
premium by charging more. In the end, their machines weren't actually
capable of anything more than the competition, though I believe that
the Apple ][ felt more robust than machines from Atari and Commodore.
Of course, I wasn't old enough to even own one at the time, so I'm
basing myself on what other people have said.
What?
Complete bullshit you just made up.
No, it is a well known fact: <https://ibb.co/6jwrkVY>
I imagine that you're just as shocked as muhammedans
On 12/15/25 6:16 PM, -hh wrote:
On 12/15/25 17:55, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/15/25 5:08 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-13 18:29, pothead wrote:
On 2025-12-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 16:55:03 -0500, -hh wrote:
Wish that was the case, because I've lost some Dell laptops from >>>>>>> swollen
batteries at <3 years life: it doesn't do much good to have
upgradable
RAM/SSD designs when the office IT Department then won't even touch >>>>>>> replacing a battery: they just replace the whole kit 'n kaboodle >>>>>>> with
new, reimage it to set it up & migrate user data. Ditto for broken >>>>>>> smartphones too.
I was happy to see that the refurbished Lenovo T480 laptop I
bought allows
for cutting off the charging before the battery is completely full >>>>>> and
that there is a Linux cli utility to set the charge parameters.
Lenovo is one of the best.
Indestructable, business grade laptop designed to travel with you
and keep working despite abuse.
Make sure to keep the fan free from dust.
Typical of most laptops.
And to get that level of quality, you PAY for it.
And people who pay it don't get accused of being "brainwashed", nor
is Lenovo accused of "extorting" them.
If I wanted a laptop, Lenovo would be a good choice, though. Apple
would be an expensive choice.
Back in my Thinkpad era, the IBM ones were running close to $3K, and
Lenovo was $2-2.5K. In today's dollars, that's quite a bit more.
Migrated then to Dell and these were still ballpark $1.5K but they'd
die every 3 years (if you were lucky), so a lifespan similar to the
'Pads was still $3-4K.
Meantime, that Mac laptop that went seven years was $1350 (under $200/
yr), and last year's replacement for it (APMCX14LLA) was only $1800.
Bottom line is better lifecycle cost versus their business PC
equivalents that I've used...
...vastly better than my second to last Dell, a Latitude 7280 (i7 dual
core Koby Lake @ 2.8GHz; 16GB RAM & 256GB SSD) which ran ~$1500, but
lasted less than 3 years before its battery ballooned ($500+/yr).
Looking at Lenovo's choices of laptops, they are crazy expensive. Not necessarily as brazenly extorting as Apple, but bad.
Competitive pricing matters, IMO, when I can get by so well with this PC made in China.
On 12/15/25 18:53, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/15/25 6:16 PM, -hh wrote:
On 12/15/25 17:55, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/15/25 5:08 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-13 18:29, pothead wrote:
On 2025-12-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 16:55:03 -0500, -hh wrote:
Wish that was the case, because I've lost some Dell laptops from >>>>>>>> swollen
batteries at <3 years life: it doesn't do much good to have >>>>>>>> upgradable
RAM/SSD designs when the office IT Department then won't even touch >>>>>>>> replacing a battery: they just replace the whole kit 'n kaboodle >>>>>>>> with
new, reimage it to set it up & migrate user data. Ditto for broken >>>>>>>> smartphones too.
I was happy to see that the refurbished Lenovo T480 laptop I
bought allows
for cutting off the charging before the battery is completely
full and
that there is a Linux cli utility to set the charge parameters.
Lenovo is one of the best.
Indestructable, business grade laptop designed to travel with you
and keep working despite abuse.
Make sure to keep the fan free from dust.
Typical of most laptops.
And to get that level of quality, you PAY for it.
And people who pay it don't get accused of being "brainwashed", nor >>>>> is Lenovo accused of "extorting" them.
If I wanted a laptop, Lenovo would be a good choice, though. Apple
would be an expensive choice.
Back in my Thinkpad era, the IBM ones were running close to $3K, and
Lenovo was $2-2.5K. In today's dollars, that's quite a bit more.
Migrated then to Dell and these were still ballpark $1.5K but they'd
die every 3 years (if you were lucky), so a lifespan similar to the
'Pads was still $3-4K.
Meantime, that Mac laptop that went seven years was $1350 (under
$200/ yr), and last year's replacement for it (APMCX14LLA) was only
$1800. Bottom line is better lifecycle cost versus their business PC
equivalents that I've used...
...vastly better than my second to last Dell, a Latitude 7280 (i7
dual core Koby Lake @ 2.8GHz; 16GB RAM & 256GB SSD) which ran ~$1500,
but lasted less than 3 years before its battery ballooned ($500+/yr).
Looking at Lenovo's choices of laptops, they are crazy expensive. Not
necessarily as brazenly extorting as Apple, but bad.
I had a couple of Thinkpads which cost the same or more as my
counterpart Mac laptops.
On Dec 16, 2025 at 1:50:48 PM MST, "CrudeSausage" wrote <6941c628$0$21959$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
Nope.
Because you haven't even supported your first claim that:
'Jobs wanted to give people the IMPRESSION that their machines were
premium by charging more.'
Actually building premium machines isn't giving people an impression
that they're premium.
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
I am NOT an expert in the others, but from what I saw nothing compared to the old AppleWorks. Of course that is just one class of software.
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 19:09:09 -0500, -hh wrote:
Clearly, you never had to use a Timex-Sinclair keyboard! ;-) Apple has
been more solidly built, and they also have a better dealership network
for providing customer support (which isn't free), long before they
started their own retail stores.
I bought the kit form of the ZX-80 to see what you got for $100. That keyboard is something I'd rather commit to the memory hole.
Between that
and the TV video adapter it was a good example of you get what you pay
for,
On 2025-12-16 7:09 p.m., -hh wrote:
On 12/15/25 20:15, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-15 5:54 p.m., -hh wrote:
What do current benchmarks show you between two comparable machines >>>>> at the same price?
Don't know, as I'm not currently in the market for new hardware.
What's your current PC do and when was it put into service?
Zephyrus G14 2021 with AMD R9 5900HS CPU and RTX3060 GPU. It's a 2021
model. The new 2TB NVMe is a Samsung 990 EVO.
Looks like its been a $2K-$3K laptop, +$200 more for the new NVMe.
I recall paying $1,899 plus tax Canadian in June 2021.
The Pro was only $10 more but it used more power and I wouldn't have
been able to use its full speed anyway since my laptop's interface is
a PCIe 3.0 x4.
Either would benchmark well below what I'd already mentioned. Nothing
wrong with that if you don't believe you'll need the performance,
either initially or within the system's expected X year lifespan.
There is a good chance that the storage in Macs, by default, performed better than my Zephyrus G14 did by default. With a RAID0, I would expect that. However, both Apple computers and those of competitors perform on
par nowadays in their default configurations.
; I doubt providing less bang for the buck is part of what the Apple
stockholders want the company to offer. Higher profit margins, for
sure, but not an inevitable backlash from customers who eventually
realize that they're being ripped off.
Apple has been 'pricey' since the Apple ][ shipped 45+ years ago,
which suggests a different value paradigm than what you're assuming.
Jobs wanted to give people the impression that their machines were
premium by charging more.
So? All well-run corporations want to (& strive to) create moats, and
this is one of many time-tested practices for product differentiation.
I'm not saying that it wasn't successful. In fact, it might have been responsible for serious business people seeing Apple as the only
alternative to IBM rather than Commodore or Atari. However, it gives a
false impression that what Apple offered/offers is superior to what the competition gives you.
the way the machines interoperate and how easy it is to get a warranty, recycle your machine and get a repair is quite attractive. It feels like
the company's really got it together whereas with every other company,
it feels like the head doesn't know what the ass is doing.
I wouldn't
play too many games on it, but I suppose that matters less and less now.
In the end, their machines weren't actually capable of anything more
than the competition, though I believe that the Apple ][ felt more
robust than machines from Atari and Commodore. Of course, I wasn't
old enough to even own one at the time, so I'm basing myself on what
other people have said.
Clearly, you never had to use a Timex-Sinclair keyboard! ;-) Apple
has been more solidly built, and they also have a better dealership
network for providing customer support (which isn't free), long before
they started their own retail stores.
I have to admit that I would have found that attractive if I were a
computer user in the 80s and the Apple ][ and/or Mac were available for purchase. OF course, living through the 80s, the only computer I really thought was awesome was the Amiga.
Admittedly, I have yet to use an ARM-equipped machine with Windows
11. I imagine it can't be that great if Dell is opting for Core 7
Ultra rather than more Snapdragon X laptops.
Which means that those customers will therefore gravitate to Apple,
despite yon "less bang for the buck" insinuations. Since they're
voting with their wallet, their vote is quite credible.
I doubt that most people who buy Macs or PCs even have an idea of
what kind of processor it is equipped with.
Depends on one's level of geekery.
Well, I can tell you that back when my Dell died in 2010 and I had to
shop for a replacement, I had no idea what the heck an i3 was. I just
knew that the Core 2 Duo Apple was offering was very outdated.
With batteries, that might be the result of the offending part
being glued to other components. My own laptop allows me to replace >>>>> my battery fairly easily if I choose to do so, but I notice that
quite a few manufacturers are imitating Apple because of the
thinness obsession and gluing or soldering components.
Which means that it isn't an "only Apple" thing. And come to think
of it, the battery in the most recent Mac laptop that I've retired
was still unswollen and ~okay condition at the seven (7) year mark.
Doesn't this observation also run counter to "less bang for the
buck" claims?
Lithium-ion will swell no matter what. If it didn't happen with the
Apple laptop, I can only wonder what the origin of their lithium is
and why the batteries in Razer laptops seem to swell much faster.
Material aging properties like this are why the Engineering plans
ahead for in the design. Shortsighted and cheap-ass outfits who cut
corners will invariably get burned by that decision later on.
I've participated in some Li-Ion powerpack development; the last one
that I was closely involved with was originally delivered in 2010 and
as of the last time that I personally saw it in Summer 2022, it was
still doing fine: that's 12 years & counting.
That's why I'm thinking that some companies get a higher quality metal
than others. Alan is suggesting that it's the chemistry and I'll accept that, but Apple doesn't make its own batteries as far as I know and buy
them from someone else. The question, for me, is who does Razer buy from
for theirs to blow up within two years and who is Apple buying from?
I had a couple of Thinkpads which cost the same or more as my
counterpart Mac laptops.
On 12/16/25 19:48, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-16 7:09 p.m., -hh wrote:
On 12/15/25 20:15, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-15 5:54 p.m., -hh wrote:
What do current benchmarks show you between two comparable
machines at the same price?
Don't know, as I'm not currently in the market for new hardware.
What's your current PC do and when was it put into service?
Zephyrus G14 2021 with AMD R9 5900HS CPU and RTX3060 GPU. It's a
2021 model. The new 2TB NVMe is a Samsung 990 EVO.
Looks like its been a $2K-$3K laptop, +$200 more for the new NVMe.
I recall paying $1,899 plus tax Canadian in June 2021.
Which is fine; I just did a quick google without listing features, so it could have had a newer GPU/etc. That's a price point where one should
get pretty respectable capabilities (snarky side eye at ChromeBooks :-)
There is a good chance that the storage in Macs, by default, performed
better than my Zephyrus G14 did by default. With a RAID0, I would
expect that. However, both Apple computers and those of competitors
perform on par nowadays in their default configurations.
I'd suspect/expect that the Macs which were using the RAID0 performance approach 3-4 years ago are still doing that today, and those that didn't still aren't. The minimally bumped basic MBP business machine that I picked up last year doesn't need higher performance and is an example of
the latter: it benches at just ~3K read/write, much less than the older personal machine that I prioritize performance for media work.
FWIW, here's an example of a still very raw test dump I did last month
on a personal project:
<https://huntzinger.com/photo/2025/Norway_Aurora_20251021.mov>
...this version's been de-rezz'ed down to just 1080p and lost its IQ.
That's part of the next part to figure out.
I'm not saying that it wasn't successful. In fact, it might have been
responsible for serious business people seeing Apple as the only
alternative to IBM rather than Commodore or Atari. However, it gives a
false impression that what Apple offered/offers is superior to what
the competition gives you.
By whatever means, they have been one of the very few survivors, and did
so without a abuse-of-monopoly type of overtone. I think a lot of their staying power has come from the iPhone era, specifically during its introduction while RIM's Blackberry was so dominant in Corporate
America: what ended up happening was that the C-Suite executives
preferred to use the iPhone over the BB and instead of asking their IT
Dept if they could "pretty please" consider adding the iPhone, IT was
flat out ordered to do it.
Likewise, when it came to competition from Android in the office, when employees were allowed to choose (and didn't have to pay), the
preference was pretty compelling. I can recall an old COLA conversation
on the Android-vs-iOS wars where I posted this pic from our office
showing the delivery of new smartphones for the office:
<https://huntzinger.com/gallery/index.php/Misc/iphones>
I'd have to go see what the old COLA post said to be 100% accurate, but
my recollection is there was something like just 1 or 2 Androids in that pile of ~20, with the rest all iPhones...a pretty brutal ratio.
I wouldn't play too many games on it, but I suppose that matters less
and less now.
Understood & agreed; I suspect that a lot of the "Power User" PC club
has historically been younger guys who still have good eyes and reaction times who want to play GPU-intensive games at home. As one migrates
away from playing "twich" games, one learns that something like
Civilization 5 doesn't really need a huge GPU/etc.
In the end, their machines weren't actually capable of anything more
than the competition, though I believe that the Apple ][ felt more
robust than machines from Atari and Commodore. Of course, I wasn't
old enough to even own one at the time, so I'm basing myself on what
other people have said.
Clearly, you never had to use a Timex-Sinclair keyboard! ;-) Apple
has been more solidly built, and they also have a better dealership
network for providing customer support (which isn't free), long
before they started their own retail stores.
I have to admit that I would have found that attractive if I were a
computer user in the 80s and the Apple ][ and/or Mac were available
for purchase. OF course, living through the 80s, the only computer I
really thought was awesome was the Amiga.
The Amiga was a good attempt at a GUI centric OS that was competing
against Apple and had its fans. I don't recall why why it flamed out.
Depends on one's level of geekery.
Well, I can tell you that back when my Dell died in 2010 and I had to
shop for a replacement, I had no idea what the heck an i3 was. I just
knew that the Core 2 Duo Apple was offering was very outdated.
There's been a lot of creaky cheap stuff on minimal spec systems. I
have a Celeron based PC sitting around that I need to figure out what to
do with it, or turn it in for recycling. Maybe a linux server box for a bunch of tiny old Hard Drives...if its power consumption isn't too bad.
I honestly don't know enough about how they produce the batteries toMaterial aging properties like this are why the Engineering plans
ahead for in the design. Shortsighted and cheap-ass outfits who cut
corners will invariably get burned by that decision later on.
I've participated in some Li-Ion powerpack development; the last one
that I was closely involved with was originally delivered in 2010 and
as of the last time that I personally saw it in Summer 2022, it was
still doing fine: that's 12 years & counting.
That's why I'm thinking that some companies get a higher quality metal
than others. Alan is suggesting that it's the chemistry and I'll
accept that, but Apple doesn't make its own batteries as far as I know
and buy them from someone else. The question, for me, is who does
Razer buy from for theirs to blow up within two years and who is Apple
buying from?
Its probably an "all of the above" situation, where some chemistry
specifics apply (good enough vs best practices), ditto the manufacturing
& tolerances, and then the supplier/supply chain which does a better job
of preventing shoddy counterfeits from getting snuck in. For example,
the stuff I was using was primarily from SAFT; their VL30P had the specs
we needed...and we paid for it. After subtracting off their NRE fee for the first unit, its 2010 cost was a shade over $1000 per kW-hr.
They definitely don't retain their value the way that Macs do though. I
got the 2019 Thinkpad I'm typing this on for $115 plus shipping.
Meanwhile, a Mac from the same year will cost at least triple despite it
no longer receiving updates from the company Alan worships.
A few years later I learned that a couple of coworkers went in on
another relic of the past, the Ti/99. At least one of them bought like
3 or 4 of them when they were on fire sale clearance. I still have no
idea why...same guy also had like four old Corvettes, none of which were
in good enough condition for them to be able to drive it to work. They
were just collecting dust in rented garages ($$), as they weren't even
making any effort to get them back into running condition.
On 12/16/25 9:26 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Dec 16, 2025 at 1:50:48 PM MST, "CrudeSausage" wrote
<6941c628$0$21959$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
Nope.
Because you haven't even supported your first claim that:
'Jobs wanted to give people the IMPRESSION that their machines were
premium by charging more.'
Actually building premium machines isn't giving people an impression
that they're premium.
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
I am NOT an expert in the others, but from what I saw nothing compared to the
old AppleWorks. Of course that is just one class of software.
AppleWorks was a remarkable achievement. It's par for the course, now,
for an OS to offer certain things, but in the past, it had to be
fashioned by any means necessary. That was why I ended up being glad my
mom bought the used Apple IIe we had, because I learned so much about self-reliance in programming on it.
On Dec 17, 2025 at 9:17:03 AM MST, ""Joel W. Crump"" wrote <5IA0R.416292$w6H4.248666@fx11.iad>:
On 12/16/25 9:26 PM, Brock McNuggets wrote:
On Dec 16, 2025 at 1:50:48 PM MST, "CrudeSausage" wrote
<6941c628$0$21959$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
Nope.
Because you haven't even supported your first claim that:
'Jobs wanted to give people the IMPRESSION that their machines
were premium by charging more.'
Actually building premium machines isn't giving people an
impression that they're premium.
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll
give you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than
even Atari's machines.
I am NOT an expert in the others, but from what I saw nothing
compared to the old AppleWorks. Of course that is just one class of
software.
AppleWorks was a remarkable achievement. It's par for the course,
now, for an OS to offer certain things, but in the past, it had to be
fashioned by any means necessary. That was why I ended up being glad
my mom bought the used Apple IIe we had, because I learned so much
about self-reliance in programming on it.
Tha and a bunch of EDU software is what drew me to the Apple IIe, but
also familiarity. Just happened to be what I was around. I did play
with some other systems of the era but not as much. I first saw
Lemmings on an Amiga and had fun with that.
On 2025-12-17 2:11 p.m., -hh wrote:
On 12/16/25 19:48, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-16 7:09 p.m., -hh wrote:
On 12/15/25 20:15, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-15 5:54 p.m., -hh wrote:
What do current benchmarks show you between two comparable
machines at the same price?
Don't know, as I'm not currently in the market for new hardware.
What's your current PC do and when was it put into service?
Zephyrus G14 2021 with AMD R9 5900HS CPU and RTX3060 GPU. It's a
2021 model. The new 2TB NVMe is a Samsung 990 EVO.
Looks like its been a $2K-$3K laptop, +$200 more for the new NVMe.
I recall paying $1,899 plus tax Canadian in June 2021.
Which is fine; I just did a quick google without listing features, so
it could have had a newer GPU/etc. That's a price point where one
should get pretty respectable capabilities (snarky side eye at
ChromeBooks :-)
I never want to pay more than $2,500 (taxes included) on a machine that
I hold onto for no more than five years. If games don't run as well on
my five-year-old machine as they used to, I'm happy to drop the graphics
or buy older games. The latest and greatest means nothing to me,
especially since the new titles have become political anyway. Still, I
doubt I'll be playing for much longer. I generally stick to Civilization more than anything else.
There is a good chance that the storage in Macs, by default,
performed better than my Zephyrus G14 did by default. With a RAID0, I
would expect that. However, both Apple computers and those of
competitors perform on par nowadays in their default configurations.
I'd suspect/expect that the Macs which were using the RAID0
performance approach 3-4 years ago are still doing that today, and
those that didn't still aren't. The minimally bumped basic MBP
business machine that I picked up last year doesn't need higher
performance and is an example of the latter: it benches at just ~3K
read/write, much less than the older personal machine that I
prioritize performance for media work.
FWIW, here's an example of a still very raw test dump I did last month
on a personal project:
<https://huntzinger.com/photo/2025/Norway_Aurora_20251021.mov>
...this version's been de-rezz'ed down to just 1080p and lost its IQ.
That's part of the next part to figure out.
I have to admit that I'm looking forward to having an excuse to buy a
new laptop.
In the meantime, games still play great on this nearly five-
year-old GPU and the machine itself has more RAM and storage than I'll
ever need. It's also in stellar shape (despite all the repairs I sent it
out for). I've had to have the keyboard replaced (typical issue
nowadays) and eventual motherboard replacement but the latter was of my
own doing. I was convinced that when they changed the battery, they
caused a spark which took out the fingerprint reader and was ready break
a connector to force them to replace it. I was right. It works perfectly now. The repair cost me nothing in both cases.
I'm not saying that it wasn't successful. In fact, it might have been
responsible for serious business people seeing Apple as the only
alternative to IBM rather than Commodore or Atari. However, it gives
a false impression that what Apple offered/offers is superior to what
the competition gives you.
By whatever means, they have been one of the very few survivors, and
did so without a abuse-of-monopoly type of overtone. I think a lot of
their staying power has come from the iPhone era, specifically during
its introduction while RIM's Blackberry was so dominant in Corporate
America: what ended up happening was that the C-Suite executives
preferred to use the iPhone over the BB and instead of asking their IT
Dept if they could "pretty please" consider adding the iPhone, IT was
flat out ordered to do it.
Likewise, when it came to competition from Android in the office, when
employees were allowed to choose (and didn't have to pay), the
preference was pretty compelling. I can recall an old COLA
conversation on the Android-vs-iOS wars where I posted this pic from
our office showing the delivery of new smartphones for the office:
<https://huntzinger.com/gallery/index.php/Misc/iphones>
I'd have to go see what the old COLA post said to be 100% accurate,
but my recollection is there was something like just 1 or 2 Androids
in that pile of ~20, with the rest all iPhones...a pretty brutal ratio.
Honestly, I don't blame people for preferring iPhones. The very fact
that developers only have to develop for one operating system means that that iOS app you're downloading is going to run right whether it is an iPhone 12 or an iPhone 17. Meanwhile, the Android ecosystem has so many versions and so many varieties that making your application run properly must be a nightmare. I know that Bell Canada stopped making its French
RDS sports app available for Android TV because there was no way of guaranteeing that it would work for everyone. Meanwhile, the iOS edition
is still available and works great.
I wouldn't play too many games on it, but I suppose that matters less
and less now.
Understood & agreed; I suspect that a lot of the "Power User" PC club
has historically been younger guys who still have good eyes and
reaction times who want to play GPU-intensive games at home. As one
migrates away from playing "twich" games, one learns that something
like Civilization 5 doesn't really need a huge GPU/etc.
And it's not a worse game. Heck, some people believe that Civilization 4
was the best and others think the 6 was the peak. Whether you can play
the 7 or not means nothing because if you even play 2 from the late 90s,
the game concept hasn't changed that significantly. It looks better and
some things are neat, but if you need your Civilization fix, even the
first one ever made will do the job. Only Freeciv is completely awful.
In the end, their machines weren't actually capable of anything
more than the competition, though I believe that the Apple ][ felt
more robust than machines from Atari and Commodore. Of course, I
wasn't old enough to even own one at the time, so I'm basing myself >>>>> on what other people have said.
Clearly, you never had to use a Timex-Sinclair keyboard! ;-) Apple
has been more solidly built, and they also have a better dealership
network for providing customer support (which isn't free), long
before they started their own retail stores.
I have to admit that I would have found that attractive if I were a
computer user in the 80s and the Apple ][ and/or Mac were available
for purchase. OF course, living through the 80s, the only computer I
really thought was awesome was the Amiga.
The Amiga was a good attempt at a GUI centric OS that was competing
against Apple and had its fans. I don't recall why why it flamed out.
Commodore kept selling the same machine since 1987. The upgrades were
few and far between and even after they were released, developers
targeted the lowest common denominator in the Amiga 500. It was the same problem with the Atari 520ST being targeted despite many improvements. People wanted something superior and only the PC and Mac developers were bothering to develop for the latest technology.
Depends on one's level of geekery.
Well, I can tell you that back when my Dell died in 2010 and I had to
shop for a replacement, I had no idea what the heck an i3 was. I just
knew that the Core 2 Duo Apple was offering was very outdated.
There's been a lot of creaky cheap stuff on minimal spec systems. I
have a Celeron based PC sitting around that I need to figure out what
to do with it, or turn it in for recycling. Maybe a linux server box
for a bunch of tiny old Hard Drives...if its power consumption isn't
too bad.
You can always give it away to a needy family.
I'm going to start doing
that with older laptops I use at work. A ten-year-old machine is a piece
of crap unless you put Linux on it and give it to a kid whose family can barely afford to eat. Luckily, I work in a school where there are tons
of poor families and they would appreciate the gift.
Material aging properties like this are why the Engineering plans
ahead for in the design. Shortsighted and cheap-ass outfits who cut >>>> corners will invariably get burned by that decision later on.
I've participated in some Li-Ion powerpack development; the last one
that I was closely involved with was originally delivered in 2010
and as of the last time that I personally saw it in Summer 2022, it
was still doing fine: that's 12 years & counting.
That's why I'm thinking that some companies get a higher quality
metal than others. Alan is suggesting that it's the chemistry and
I'll accept that, but Apple doesn't make its own batteries as far as
I know and buy them from someone else. The question, for me, is who
does Razer buy from for theirs to blow up within two years and who is
Apple buying from?
Its probably an "all of the above" situation, where some chemistry
specifics apply (good enough vs best practices), ditto the
manufacturing & tolerances, and then the supplier/supply chain which
does a better job of preventing shoddy counterfeits from getting snuck
in. For example, the stuff I was using was primarily from SAFT; their
VL30P had the specs we needed...and we paid for it. After subtracting
off their NRE fee for the first unit, its 2010 cost was a shade over
$1000 per kW-hr.
I honestly don't know enough about how they produce the batteries to comment, but I know that once the original battery of a typical PC manufacturer's machine wears out, you are likely to get a terrible counterfeit if you seek to get it from anywhere but the manufacturer
itself. I had what turned out to be a complete piece of garbage in my
old MSI GT72 when I replaced the original battery and the experience was almost traumatizing.
On 12/17/25 14:45, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-17 2:11 p.m., -hh wrote:
On 12/16/25 19:48, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-16 7:09 p.m., -hh wrote:
On 12/15/25 20:15, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-15 5:54 p.m., -hh wrote:
What do current benchmarks show you between two comparable
machines at the same price?
Don't know, as I'm not currently in the market for new hardware. >>>>>>> What's your current PC do and when was it put into service?
Zephyrus G14 2021 with AMD R9 5900HS CPU and RTX3060 GPU. It's a
2021 model. The new 2TB NVMe is a Samsung 990 EVO.
Looks like its been a $2K-$3K laptop, +$200 more for the new NVMe.
I recall paying $1,899 plus tax Canadian in June 2021.
Which is fine; I just did a quick google without listing features, so
it could have had a newer GPU/etc. That's a price point where one
should get pretty respectable capabilities (snarky side eye at
ChromeBooks :-)
I never want to pay more than $2,500 (taxes included) on a machine
that I hold onto for no more than five years. If games don't run as
well on my five-year-old machine as they used to, I'm happy to drop
the graphics or buy older games. The latest and greatest means nothing
to me, especially since the new titles have become political anyway.
Still, I doubt I'll be playing for much longer. I generally stick to
Civilization more than anything else.
I'd like for it to be <$100, but I also know that the market doesn't
care what our personal preferences are, as they sell to huge market segments. Typically, they'll design to a consumer price point and the product is what it is for that price point. Apple used to chronically
do this with their "starting at" and hurt their image by selling
machines which were pragmatically under-specc'ed for their OS. MS was similarly guilty with promises of how little RAM Windows needed, etc.
Ditto with car manufacturers & everyone else. As such, I tailor what
the need is to the tasks, so a business laptop might be up to ~$2K these days, whereas my media workstation will not need to be mobile but will
need more capacity. This last go-around the core unit was just $2500, which was quite a bit less than its 2012 predecessor.
There is a good chance that the storage in Macs, by default,
performed better than my Zephyrus G14 did by default. With a RAID0,
I would expect that. However, both Apple computers and those of
competitors perform on par nowadays in their default configurations.
I'd suspect/expect that the Macs which were using the RAID0
performance approach 3-4 years ago are still doing that today, and
those that didn't still aren't. The minimally bumped basic MBP
business machine that I picked up last year doesn't need higher
performance and is an example of the latter: it benches at just ~3K
read/write, much less than the older personal machine that I
prioritize performance for media work.
FWIW, here's an example of a still very raw test dump I did last
month on a personal project:
<https://huntzinger.com/photo/2025/Norway_Aurora_20251021.mov>
...this version's been de-rezz'ed down to just 1080p and lost its IQ.
That's part of the next part to figure out.
I have to admit that I'm looking forward to having an excuse to buy a
new laptop.
My last laptop was doing fine, but at seven years it was getting due,
and since Apple had moved from Intel CPUs to their own M series, a new
one has 2-3x the battery life. A cherry on top was that despite being seven years old, its trade-in value was ~10% of its original price.
In the meantime, games still play great on this nearly five- year-old
GPU and the machine itself has more RAM and storage than I'll ever
need. It's also in stellar shape (despite all the repairs I sent it
out for). I've had to have the keyboard replaced (typical issue
nowadays) and eventual motherboard replacement but the latter was of
my own doing. I was convinced that when they changed the battery, they
caused a spark which took out the fingerprint reader and was ready
break a connector to force them to replace it. I was right. It works
perfectly now. The repair cost me nothing in both cases.
Not to say that Apple is perfect, but in trying to think of the last
time that I had to have a Mac be serviced ... I'd probably have to go
back to a 2005 vintage PowerMac G5's CD/DVD burner.
I'm not saying that it wasn't successful. In fact, it might have
been responsible for serious business people seeing Apple as the
only alternative to IBM rather than Commodore or Atari. However, it
gives a false impression that what Apple offered/offers is superior
to what the competition gives you.
By whatever means, they have been one of the very few survivors, and
did so without a abuse-of-monopoly type of overtone. I think a lot
of their staying power has come from the iPhone era, specifically
during its introduction while RIM's Blackberry was so dominant in
Corporate America: what ended up happening was that the C-Suite
executives preferred to use the iPhone over the BB and instead of
asking their IT Dept if they could "pretty please" consider adding
the iPhone, IT was flat out ordered to do it.
Likewise, when it came to competition from Android in the office,
when employees were allowed to choose (and didn't have to pay), the
preference was pretty compelling. I can recall an old COLA
conversation on the Android-vs-iOS wars where I posted this pic from
our office showing the delivery of new smartphones for the office:
<https://huntzinger.com/gallery/index.php/Misc/iphones>
I'd have to go see what the old COLA post said to be 100% accurate,
but my recollection is there was something like just 1 or 2 Androids
in that pile of ~20, with the rest all iPhones...a pretty brutal ratio.
Honestly, I don't blame people for preferring iPhones. The very fact
that developers only have to develop for one operating system means
that that iOS app you're downloading is going to run right whether it
is an iPhone 12 or an iPhone 17. Meanwhile, the Android ecosystem has
so many versions and so many varieties that making your application
run properly must be a nightmare. I know that Bell Canada stopped
making its French RDS sports app available for Android TV because
there was no way of guaranteeing that it would work for everyone.
Meanwhile, the iOS edition is still available and works great.
Agreed; there's strengths and weaknesses to try-2-be-it-all-for-everyone architectures.
I wouldn't play too many games on it, but I suppose that matters
less and less now.
Understood & agreed; I suspect that a lot of the "Power User" PC club
has historically been younger guys who still have good eyes and
reaction times who want to play GPU-intensive games at home. As one
migrates away from playing "twich" games, one learns that something
like Civilization 5 doesn't really need a huge GPU/etc.
And it's not a worse game. Heck, some people believe that Civilization
4 was the best and others think the 6 was the peak. Whether you can
play the 7 or not means nothing because if you even play 2 from the
late 90s, the game concept hasn't changed that significantly. It looks
better and some things are neat, but if you need your Civilization
fix, even the first one ever made will do the job. Only Freeciv is
completely awful.
I think it was Civ 3 and/or 5 that I had squandered many an hour on; was
a good diversion at the time.
Depends on one's level of geekery.
Well, I can tell you that back when my Dell died in 2010 and I had
to shop for a replacement, I had no idea what the heck an i3 was. I
just knew that the Core 2 Duo Apple was offering was very outdated.
There's been a lot of creaky cheap stuff on minimal spec systems. I
have a Celeron based PC sitting around that I need to figure out what
to do with it, or turn it in for recycling. Maybe a linux server box
for a bunch of tiny old Hard Drives...if its power consumption isn't
too bad.
You can always give it away to a needy family.
If I could figure out the Windows password to do a good secure wipe, I'd consider that; my recollection is that it was (barely) running Vista.
I honestly don't know enough about how they produce the batteries to
comment, but I know that once the original battery of a typical PC
manufacturer's machine wears out, you are likely to get a terrible
counterfeit if you seek to get it from anywhere but the manufacturer
itself. I had what turned out to be a complete piece of garbage in my
old MSI GT72 when I replaced the original battery and the experience
was almost traumatizing.
The one thing that Elon did right with Tesla was to employ what's
basically a consumer electronics battery in his car design ... but the trade-off is that doing health monitoring and power tailoring down to
the individual cell level is onerous (& probably skipped). That's a
corner that can be cut for a product with a 3-5 year lifespan, but
becomes increasingly problematic (and a higher fire risk). It almost
goes without saying that therefore, I'd never risk parking one of his
inside of an attached garage...and while I've not done a detailed check,
I suspect that the same probably also applies too to his power walls.
On 12/16/25 7:30 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-16 4:59 p.m., Alan wrote:
Out of curiosity, are you at all interested in what he actually said?
Being born on the same day as Steve Jobs got me interested in the guy.
I've seen enough documentaries and read enough articles about him to
know what he said and what he was thinking. He indeed wanted his
products to be priced more to give the impression that they were
luxury items, regardless of whether you want to acknowledge that. It
was that kind of thinking which resulted in the Macintosh which cost
way more than everything else, offered little to no upgradeability and
managed to do a lot less than the competition.
Jobs did a great job steering Apple into what it is today. And yet who
in the hell would pay them for a fuckin' thing?
What you've not shown are Jobs actual words, but rather others'
interpretations.
;
And offering higher quality for higher prices is not "giving people
the impression of higher quality".
In other words, Alan is saying that even when he's proven wrong, he
is right.
Nope.
Because you haven't even supported your first claim that:
'Jobs wanted to give people the IMPRESSION that their machines were
premium by charging more.'
Actually building premium machines isn't giving people an impression
that they're premium.
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
Alan wrote:
And offering higher quality for higher prices is not "giving people the
impression of higher quality".
Lots of companies do this. Economists have a name for it - a Giffen
good.
On 2025-12-17 8:26 p.m., -hh wrote:
[...]
Not to say that Apple is perfect, but in trying to think of the last
time that I had to have a Mac be serviced ... I'd probably have to go
back to a 2005 vintage PowerMac G5's CD/DVD burner.
For what it's worth, I loved the PowerBook G4 I had in the early 2000s
and the iMac G5 that replaced it.
The iBook G3 was okay for Mac OS X,
even with 640MB RAM, but it ran OS 9 beautifully. Even the MacBook Air
M1 I had was a joy to use. I don't think I've ever disliked anything I
got from Apple.
I'd have to go see what the old COLA post said to be 100% accurate,Honestly, I don't blame people for preferring iPhones. The very fact
but my recollection is there was something like just 1 or 2 Androids
in that pile of ~20, with the rest all iPhones...a pretty brutal ratio. >>>
that developers only have to develop for one operating system means
that that iOS app you're downloading is going to run right whether it
is an iPhone 12 or an iPhone 17. Meanwhile, the Android ecosystem has
so many versions and so many varieties that making your application
run properly must be a nightmare. I know that Bell Canada stopped
making its French RDS sports app available for Android TV because
there was no way of guaranteeing that it would work for everyone.
Meanwhile, the iOS edition is still available and works great.
Agreed; there's strengths and weaknesses to try-2-be-it-all-for-
everyone architectures.
I can't imagine going back to an Android now that I'm with the iPhone
13. I can get used to it again either way, but I never really found
Android to be a pleasant experience.
I think it was Civ 3 and/or 5 that I had squandered many an hour on;
was a good diversion at the time.
It's the most perfect game I have ever come across.
You can always give it away to a needy family.
If I could figure out the Windows password to do a good secure wipe,
I'd consider that; my recollection is that it was (barely) running Vista.
Wow, at that age you're better off using it as a paperweight. Of course,
it will probably run Linux fine.
< snip >
I honestly don't know enough about how they produce the batteries to
comment, but I know that once the original battery of a typical PC
manufacturer's machine wears out, you are likely to get a terrible
counterfeit if you seek to get it from anywhere but the manufacturer
itself. I had what turned out to be a complete piece of garbage in my
old MSI GT72 when I replaced the original battery and the experience
was almost traumatizing.
The one thing that Elon did right with Tesla was to employ what's
basically a consumer electronics battery in his car design ... but the
trade-off is that doing health monitoring and power tailoring down to
the individual cell level is onerous (& probably skipped). That's a
corner that can be cut for a product with a 3-5 year lifespan, but
becomes increasingly problematic (and a higher fire risk). It almost
goes without saying that therefore, I'd never risk parking one of his
inside of an attached garage...and while I've not done a detailed
check, I suspect that the same probably also applies too to his power
walls.
My wife flat-out refuses to get an electric car and considering the
problems they've been shown to have (as well as the fact that they don't truly benefit "the planet" like they claim), I'm quite happy to hold
onto my gas engine. Besides, electric cars wear out tires faster even if
you accept the risks attached to those vehicles or truly believe that
you're saving the world by owning one.
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 15:50:48 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
I don't know how much the demographic has changed but in the Apple II era
I associated Apples with desktop publishing and other artsy stuff. If you wanted to do something like keep books for your small business you bought
a CP/M box.
I wouldn't want to read too much into my ex has an iPhone and I have an Android :)
On 2025-12-16 13:01, chrisv wrote:
Alan wrote:Ummmmmm...no.
And offering higher quality for higher prices is not "giving people
the impression of higher quality".
Lots of companies do this. Economists have a name for it - a Giffen
good.
Look up the actual definition of a "Giffen good" and you'll see that it doesn't match up very well at all with Apple's products.
I do wonder sometimes of how many people are Android users simply
because they are "Apple haters" for whatever reason.
They produce something so good that people are willing to buy it even
when there are less expensive choices for which they could opt.
On 12/16/25 21:17, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 15:50:48 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
I don't know how much the demographic has changed but in the Apple II
era I associated Apples with desktop publishing and other artsy stuff.
If you wanted to do something like keep books for your small business
you bought a CP/M box.
hmm...
One of the first times I ever saw a ][ was in a business office setting,
and they were trying out what we now call a 'spreadsheet'. Circa 1980.
On 2025-12-16 12:50, CrudeSausage wrote:
What you've not shown are Jobs actual words, but rather others'
interpretations.
;
And offering higher quality for higher prices is not "giving people >>>>> the impression of higher quality".
In other words, Alan is saying that even when he's proven wrong, he
is right.
Nope.
Because you haven't even supported your first claim that:
'Jobs wanted to give people the IMPRESSION that their machines were
premium by charging more.'
Actually building premium machines isn't giving people an impression
that they're premium.
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
What were the release dates of each?
Back then, the pace of change was ridiculous.
On 12/17/25 21:50, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-17 8:26 p.m., -hh wrote:
[...]
Not to say that Apple is perfect, but in trying to think of the last
time that I had to have a Mac be serviced ... I'd probably have to go
back to a 2005 vintage PowerMac G5's CD/DVD burner.
For what it's worth, I loved the PowerBook G4 I had in the early 2000s
and the iMac G5 that replaced it.
I got a 12" PB G4 at one point ... actually still have it: I'll have to see if it still boots up, and what's still on it. Think all of the
Intel MBP laptops got traded-in, but I still have two cheesegraters.
I can't imagine going back to an Android now that I'm with the iPhone
13. I can get used to it again either way, but I never really found
Android to be a pleasant experience.
I do wonder sometimes of how many people are Android users simply
because they are "Apple haters" for whatever reason.
I think it was Civ 3 and/or 5 that I had squandered many an hour on;
was a good diversion at the time.
It's the most perfect game I have ever come across.
The last version I had ran on Steam...hmm...going to have to see if I
can go find my Steam account to try running it again.
(update: found some ancient Civ 2(!) files ... and the Steam account
for V ... might be out of touch until mid-January now)
My wife flat-out refuses to get an electric car and considering the
problems they've been shown to have (as well as the fact that they
don't truly benefit "the planet" like they claim), I'm quite happy to
hold onto my gas engine. Besides, electric cars wear out tires faster
even if you accept the risks attached to those vehicles or truly
believe that you're saving the world by owning one.
I suspect that a strategic mistake several automakers have made has been
to try to jump to pure EV instead of the transitional step of a hybrid.
The reason why is because from a manufacturer's perspective, a hybrid is
the worst of both worlds: it has the costs of design & manufacture of
two engines per vehicle instead of just one. Nevertheless, Toyota has announced that they're heading there more broadly. Time will tell to
what degree its been in the back room at a lot of other OEMs which could
be more broadly deployed; I know that Porsche has had a few models ship
with hybrid configurations (eg. Panamera) which didn't get much attention.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 21:58:07 -0500, -hh wrote:
I do wonder sometimes of how many people are Android users simply
because they are "Apple haters" for whatever reason.
When I finally bought a smart phone I don't remember specifically
rejecting Apple. However before that we had started developing a tablet
app on Android so Android probably seemed logical.
We did buy a Mac mini to compile the app for Apple but abandoned the
project. Going through the Apple Store hoops for a proprietary application that would be tied to specific PSAPs wasn't worth the hassle. You can sideload an apk although I've read Google is going to kill that off.
I was surprised by how many public service agencies use Apple tablets and phones. Your tax dollars at work. The dispatch centers themselves are
Windows all the way so if Microsoft hadn't dropped the ball I doubt Apple could have picked it up.
On 2025-12-16 17:03, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/16/25 7:30 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-16 4:59 p.m., Alan wrote:
Out of curiosity, are you at all interested in what he actually said?
Being born on the same day as Steve Jobs got me interested in the
guy. I've seen enough documentaries and read enough articles about
him to know what he said and what he was thinking. He indeed wanted
his products to be priced more to give the impression that they were
luxury items, regardless of whether you want to acknowledge that. It
was that kind of thinking which resulted in the Macintosh which cost
way more than everything else, offered little to no upgradeability
and managed to do a lot less than the competition.
Jobs did a great job steering Apple into what it is today. And yet
who in the hell would pay them for a fuckin' thing?
Empirically, lots of people.
That's what makes them so successful.
They produce something so good that people are willing to buy it even
when there are less expensive choices for which they could opt.
On 2025-12-18 9:58 p.m., -hh wrote:
On 12/17/25 21:50, CrudeSausage wrote:
On 2025-12-17 8:26 p.m., -hh wrote:
[...]
Not to say that Apple is perfect, but in trying to think of the last
time that I had to have a Mac be serviced ... I'd probably have to
go back to a 2005 vintage PowerMac G5's CD/DVD burner.
For what it's worth, I loved the PowerBook G4 I had in the early
2000s and the iMac G5 that replaced it.
I got a 12" PB G4 at one point ... actually still have it: I'll have
to see if it still boots up, and what's still on it. Think all of the
Intel MBP laptops got traded-in, but I still have two cheesegraters.
There was something special about the Macs that didn't run on Intel
chips, even back then. Of course, their performance was rather awful at
some point and Apple didn't have a choice but to go to Intel, but the
magic was lost the moment they did so. Luckily, they are back to using
their own chips and have restored that magic.
< snip >
I can't imagine going back to an Android now that I'm with the iPhone
13. I can get used to it again either way, but I never really found
Android to be a pleasant experience.
I do wonder sometimes of how many people are Android users simply
because they are "Apple haters" for whatever reason.
I know that a few are aware of the company (and their government's)
desire to censor everything, so Android's ability to sideload
application is a benefit. Of course, a few manufacturers seem to be
actively disabling that feature, so the benefit won't be around for much longer. Once it's gone, there will truly be no good reason to choose
Android over iOS.
I think it was Civ 3 and/or 5 that I had squandered many an hour on;
was a good diversion at the time.
It's the most perfect game I have ever come across.
The last version I had ran on Steam...hmm...going to have to see if I
can go find my Steam account to try running it again.
(update: found some ancient Civ 2(!) files ... and the Steam account
for V ... might be out of touch until mid-January now)
I had the original Civilization on a computer I traded for. I had never heard of the game but the original owner was nice enough to show me how
it worked and I didn't immediately realize how much that game was going
to take over my life. Once the 2 came out, I was dazzled by the full-
motion video. It gave the game some additional personality that made it
even more fun to play. Of course, the personality of the original, with Genghis Khan and others smiling as they're offering you garbage deals
was fun too.
< snip >
My wife flat-out refuses to get an electric car and considering the
problems they've been shown to have (as well as the fact that they
don't truly benefit "the planet" like they claim), I'm quite happy to
hold onto my gas engine. Besides, electric cars wear out tires faster
even if you accept the risks attached to those vehicles or truly
believe that you're saving the world by owning one.
I suspect that a strategic mistake several automakers have made has
been to try to jump to pure EV instead of the transitional step of a
hybrid. The reason why is because from a manufacturer's perspective, a
hybrid is the worst of both worlds: it has the costs of design &
manufacture of two engines per vehicle instead of just one.
Nevertheless, Toyota has announced that they're heading there more
broadly. Time will tell to what degree its been in the back room at a
lot of other OEMs which could be more broadly deployed; I know that
Porsche has had a few models ship with hybrid configurations (eg.
Panamera) which didn't get much attention.
If I were to get an EV of any kind, it would have to be hybrid. If the electric motor fails, I want to know that the traditional engine will
still get me to my destination and vice versa. All I would want is
greater fuel economy. Saving the world is not my concern, especially
since my government and others are busily importing garbage people with
no concern for their immediate environment or social cohesion.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 23:06:35 -0500, -hh wrote:
On 12/16/25 21:17, rbowman wrote:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2025 15:50:48 -0500, CrudeSausage wrote:
The Apple ][ was built better than the plastic competition, I'll give
you that much. Nevertheless, it was capable of much less than even
Atari's machines.
I don't know how much the demographic has changed but in the Apple II
era I associated Apples with desktop publishing and other artsy stuff.
If you wanted to do something like keep books for your small business
you bought a CP/M box.
hmm...
One of the first times I ever saw a ][ was in a business office setting,
and they were trying out what we now call a 'spreadsheet'. Circa 1980.
I've had very limited exposure to business offices.
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form that was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that businesses were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app":
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
On 12/19/25 12:49 PM, Alan wrote:
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form that
was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that businesses
were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app":
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
IBM certainly has been late to the game, over the course of this. Gates played them well. They adopted Linux when it became the clear platform
of choice for Unix. And yet Apple is always working with stuff that's
too "different", and gets left behind. It's a weird industry, overall,
but I feel great about having Linux as a way to avoid the lameness, of proprietary environments in computing.
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form that
was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that
businesses were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app":
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
IBM certainly has been late to the game, over the course of this.
Gates played them well. They adopted Linux when it became the clear
platform of choice for Unix. And yet Apple is always working with
stuff that's too "different", and gets left behind. It's a weird
industry, overall, but I feel great about having Linux as a way to
avoid the lameness, of proprietary environments in computing.
And as always, you make a reply that basically has nothing to do with
the topic under discussion.
On 12/19/25 2:13 PM, Alan wrote:
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form that
was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that
businesses were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app":
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
IBM certainly has been late to the game, over the course of this.
Gates played them well. They adopted Linux when it became the clear
platform of choice for Unix. And yet Apple is always working with
stuff that's too "different", and gets left behind. It's a weird
industry, overall, but I feel great about having Linux as a way to
avoid the lameness, of proprietary environments in computing.
And as always, you make a reply that basically has nothing to do with
the topic under discussion.
And as always, you expect the flow of discussion to go a certain way,
that it may not.
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form that >>>>> was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that
businesses were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app": >>>>>
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
IBM certainly has been late to the game, over the course of this.
Gates played them well. They adopted Linux when it became the clear >>>> platform of choice for Unix. And yet Apple is always working with
stuff that's too "different", and gets left behind. It's a weird
industry, overall, but I feel great about having Linux as a way to
avoid the lameness, of proprietary environments in computing.
And as always, you make a reply that basically has nothing to do with
the topic under discussion.
And as always, you expect the flow of discussion to go a certain way,
that it may not.
I expect it not to immediately spring off to your favourite bete noire.
A common complaint. In a nutshell, Apple's standards are quite rough on developers, so quite understandably, some develop a hate for products
which are harder for them to work on.
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for
someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter.
On 12/19/25 3:23 PM, Alan wrote:
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form
that was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that
businesses were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app": >>>>>>
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
IBM certainly has been late to the game, over the course of this.
Gates played them well. They adopted Linux when it became the
clear platform of choice for Unix. And yet Apple is always working >>>>> with stuff that's too "different", and gets left behind. It's a
weird industry, overall, but I feel great about having Linux as a
way to avoid the lameness, of proprietary environments in computing.
And as always, you make a reply that basically has nothing to do
with the topic under discussion.
And as always, you expect the flow of discussion to go a certain way,
that it may not.
I expect it not to immediately spring off to your favourite bete noire.
You included Apple in your previous statement, about VisiCalc.
They doLOL!
get credit for certain milestones like that. But yet they lag behind Microsoft and Linux due to their esoteric nature.
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form that was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that businesses were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app":
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for
someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter.
I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I
don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the Android experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form
that was cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that >>>>>>> businesses were buying Apple II computers for the first "killer >>>>>>> app":
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
IBM certainly has been late to the game, over the course of this. >>>>>> Gates played them well. They adopted Linux when it became the
clear platform of choice for Unix. And yet Apple is always
working with stuff that's too "different", and gets left behind. >>>>>> It's a weird industry, overall, but I feel great about having
Linux as a way to avoid the lameness, of proprietary environments >>>>>> in computing.
And as always, you make a reply that basically has nothing to do
with the topic under discussion.
And as always, you expect the flow of discussion to go a certain
way, that it may not.
I expect it not to immediately spring off to your favourite bete noire.
You included Apple in your previous statement, about VisiCalc.
Because the Apple II was being discussed...
...which you know, because you carefully snipped it out.
They do get credit for certain milestones like that. But yet they lag
behind Microsoft and Linux due to their esoteric nature.
LOL!
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done, iOS
has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less? It's
corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe they're getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go for something like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust, functioning setup, iPhones will accomplish most of the same things, maybe even some extra things, I just
hate them.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done, iOS
has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less? It's
corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe they're getting
something "nicer", smart people would like me go for something like the
Galaxy S where you just have a robust, functioning setup, iPhones will
accomplish most of the same things, maybe even some extra things, I just
hate them.
The Galaxy A16 works for me. I don't need a 'flagship'. It could be a
little smaller but some of the heft is the bumper case.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2025 17:43:05 -0800, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-16 13:01, chrisv wrote:
Alan wrote:Ummmmmm...no.
And offering higher quality for higher prices is not "giving people
the impression of higher quality".
Lots of companies do this. Economists have a name for it - a Giffen
good.
Look up the actual definition of a "Giffen good" and you'll see that it
doesn't match up very well at all with Apple's products.
Veblen came closer to the Apple model.
I know that a few are aware of the company (and their government's)
desire to censor everything, so Android's ability to sideload
application is a benefit. Of course, a few manufacturers seem to be
actively disabling that feature, so the benefit won't be around for
much longer. Once it's gone, there will truly be no good reason to
choose Android over iOS.
This is alluding to the "walled garden" complaints. As I mentioned to rbowman, its pretty common for developers to hate having specific rules imposed on their work, even if they understand the reasons why. The benefit to customers is fewer security holes/etc and fewer instances of having to deal with "lab rat" quality software with UI violations/etc.
I think it was Civ 3 and/or 5 that I had squandered many an hour
on; was a good diversion at the time.
It's the most perfect game I have ever come across.
The last version I had ran on Steam...hmm...going to have to see if I
can go find my Steam account to try running it again.
(update: found some ancient Civ 2(!) files ... and the Steam account
for V ... might be out of touch until mid-January now)
I had the original Civilization on a computer I traded for. I had
never heard of the game but the original owner was nice enough to show
me how it worked and I didn't immediately realize how much that game
was going to take over my life. Once the 2 came out, I was dazzled by
the full- motion video. It gave the game some additional personality
that made it even more fun to play. Of course, the personality of the
original, with Genghis Khan and others smiling as they're offering you
garbage deals was fun too.
Bad news for me is that I got Civ 5 up & running last night ;-)
If I were to get an EV of any kind, it would have to be hybrid. If the
electric motor fails, I want to know that the traditional engine will
still get me to my destination and vice versa. All I would want is
greater fuel economy. Saving the world is not my concern, especially
since my government and others are busily importing garbage people
with no concern for their immediate environment or social cohesion.
Unfortunately, hybrids reduce overall reliability because both drive-
train systems have to be functional in order to operate. Their primary benefit is as you note, better fuel economy - but even this needs to be hedged in terms of where the biggest benefit is, which is where there's
more opportunities for energy regeneration from braking, so its more for stop-n-go city driving than it is for constant-velocity highway driving.
The A16 looks like a great phone. The Galaxy S is nice to have but the
one I've had for four years and counting is still good enough. I
wouldn't replace it just because there was something newer available,
having to constantly upgrade hardware just doesn't make sense, even if I
had money to burn on such a thing.
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 09:49:27 -0800, Alan wrote:
The whole reason that IBM rushed out the original PC in a form that was
cloneable with an OS that they'd only licensed was that businesses were
buying Apple II computers for the first "killer app":
VisiCalc.
The very first spreadsheet program.
Maybe that was IBM's motivation. SuperCalc was available for CP/M shortly after VisiCalc. SuperCalc was going long after VisiCalc was bought by
Lotus and killed.
On 12/19/25 3:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for
someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter.
I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I
don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the Android
experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done,
iOS
has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less?
It's
corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe they're getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go for something like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust, functioning setup, iPhones will accomplish most of the same things, maybe even some extra things, I just hate them.
As for SuperCalc, sure: it came out for CP/M a year after VisiCalc came
out for the Apple II. What of it?
On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 14:11:46 -0800, Alan wrote:
As for SuperCalc, sure: it came out for CP/M a year after VisiCalc came
out for the Apple II. What of it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard
The Apple II was so great people wanted to run CP/M on it.
On 2025-12-19 12:53, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/19/25 3:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for
someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter.
I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I
don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the Android
experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done,
So does iOS.
That's why people keep buying it.
iOS has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less?
What are you even talking about?
It's corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe they're
getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go for something
like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust, functioning setup,
iPhones will accomplish most of the same things, maybe even some extra
things, I just hate them.
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS device.
On 2025-12-21 23:19, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 14:11:46 -0800, Alan wrote:
As for SuperCalc, sure: it came out for CP/M a year after VisiCalc
came out for the Apple II. What of it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard
The Apple II was so great people wanted to run CP/M on it.
Why are you changing the subject?
On Mon, 22 Dec 2025 00:03:39 -0800, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-21 23:19, rbowman wrote:
On Sun, 21 Dec 2025 14:11:46 -0800, Alan wrote:
As for SuperCalc, sure: it came out for CP/M a year after VisiCalc
came out for the Apple II. What of it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard
The Apple II was so great people wanted to run CP/M on it.
Why are you changing the subject?
I'm done with the whole subject. Enjoy your Apple.
On 12/21/25 5:14 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-19 12:53, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/19/25 3:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for
someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter.
I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I
don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the Android >>>> experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done,
So does iOS.
That's why people keep buying it.
I mean, it can, but Samsung's devices are more efficient.
iOS has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less?
What are you even talking about?
Apple is weird by weird people.
It's corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe they're
getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go for
something like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust, functioning
setup, iPhones will accomplish most of the same things, maybe even
some extra things, I just hate them.
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS
device.
The Samsung UI.In what...
On 2025-12-22 07:24, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/21/25 5:14 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-19 12:53, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/19/25 3:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for >>>>>> someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter.
I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I >>>>> don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the
Android
experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done,
So does iOS.
That's why people keep buying it.
I mean, it can, but Samsung's devices are more efficient.
In what specific way?
iOS has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less?
What are you even talking about?
Apple is weird by weird people.
So you keep saying...
...without ever once describing what is actually supposed to be weird.
It's corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe
they're getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go for
something like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust,
functioning setup, iPhones will accomplish most of the same things,
maybe even some extra things, I just hate them.
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS
device.
The Samsung UI.
In what...
SPECIFIC
...ways?
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS
device.
The Samsung UI.
In what...
SPECIFIC
...ways?
Apple's UI is quirky.
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS
device.
The Samsung UI.
In what...
SPECIFIC
...ways?
Apple's UI is quirky.
Apple's UI is every bit as functional as Android's, just different.
You have _chosen_ not to learn to use it, nothing more. You simply
don't know what you're missing because you prefer to be blinkered.
On 12/22/25 4:29 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-22 07:24, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/21/25 5:14 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-19 12:53, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/19/25 3:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for >>>>>>> someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter. >>>>>>I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I >>>>>> don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the
Android
experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done,
So does iOS.
That's why people keep buying it.
I mean, it can, but Samsung's devices are more efficient.
In what specific way?
The app navigation button.
iOS has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less?
What are you even talking about?
Apple is weird by weird people.
So you keep saying...
...without ever once describing what is actually supposed to be weird.
Lack of app navigation button, requirement to do a maneuver.
It's corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe
they're getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go
for something like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust,
functioning setup, iPhones will accomplish most of the same things, >>>>> maybe even some extra things, I just hate them.
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS
device.
The Samsung UI.
In what...
SPECIFIC
...ways?
Apple's UI is quirky.That doesn't meet the definition of "specific", now does it?
On 12/22/25 5:11 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS >>>>>> device.
The Samsung UI.
In what...
SPECIFIC
...ways?
Apple's UI is quirky.
Apple's UI is every bit as functional as Android's, just different.
You have _chosen_ not to learn to use it, nothing more. You simply
don't know what you're missing because you prefer to be blinkered.
Actually, it's objective observation of the two platforms. Apple isn't
for hardcore people. It's much like with macOS. I'm not better than
you because I like Linux and Android, but I am cooler and better put together.
I am cooler and better put together.
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
We should be grateful to Joel for his absurd utterances;
it makes him a perfectly excellent target for ridicule.
On 2025-12-22 07:24, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/21/25 5:14 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-19 12:53, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/19/25 3:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for >>>>>> someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter.
I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I >>>>> don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the
Android
experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done,
So does iOS.
That's why people keep buying it.
I mean, it can, but Samsung's devices are more efficient.
In what specific way?
iOS has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less?
What are you even talking about?
Apple is weird by weird people.
So you keep saying...
...without ever once describing what is actually supposed to be weird.
In what...It's corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe
they're getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go for
something like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust,
functioning setup, iPhones will accomplish most of the same things,
maybe even some extra things, I just hate them.
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS
device.
The Samsung UI.
SPECIFIC
...ways?
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe My pet rock Gordon just giggled.
Sn!pe wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
We should be grateful to Joel for his absurd utterances;
it makes him a perfectly excellent target for ridicule.
He's wrong about pretty-much everything.
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
We should be grateful to Joel for his absurd utterances;
it makes him a perfectly excellent target for ridicule.
On 12/22/25 9:39 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
We should be grateful to Joel for his absurd utterances;
it makes him a perfectly excellent target for ridicule.
Apple users are that.
On 2025-12-22 4:29 p.m., Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-22 07:24, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/21/25 5:14 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-19 12:53, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/19/25 3:31 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:05:40 -0500, -hh wrote:
The benefit is (of course) a better customer UI experience, but for >>>>>>> someone who doesn't appreciate the differences, that won't matter. >>>>>>I would question the 'better' UX. I can't do a A/B comparison since I >>>>>> don't have any Apple devices but I am not dissatisfied with the
Android
experience. Maybe I'm a redneck with poor tastes.
Nah, you're just someone with common sense, Android gets shit done,
So does iOS.
That's why people keep buying it.
I mean, it can, but Samsung's devices are more efficient.
In what specific way?
I have to disagree with the faggot here. Samsung usually needs a larger battery to get the same kind of battery life as an iPhone does. Additionally, Android usually requires double the RAM to do the same job.
iOS has to have the signature Apple motif, who could care less?
What are you even talking about?
Apple is weird by weird people.
So you keep saying...
...without ever once describing what is actually supposed to be weird.
Once you take a few minutes to figure out how iOS and MacOS work, they
both become second nature. I'm not sure what is weird about them. Side- loading is weird. Two app stores for the same platform (Samsung's and
Google Play) is weird.
In what...It's corporate crapware, at the end of the day, fools believe
they're getting something "nicer", smart people would like me go
for something like the Galaxy S where you just have a robust,
functioning setup, iPhones will accomplish most of the same things, >>>>> maybe even some extra things, I just hate them.
In what ways is Android more "robust" or "functioning" than an iOS
device.
The Samsung UI.
SPECIFIC
...ways?
He attacks what he's not using simply because he isn't using it. If he
had owned a Mac and used an iPhone, he'd be defending it to the death
like you Apple zealots do.
On 2025-12-22 5:45 p.m., Sn!pe wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
What? You don't think that being sodomized by your "girlfriend" and
sucking her "girl cock" is better and cooler than marrying the love of
your life and starting a family?
Bigot!
On 2025-12-23 6:43 a.m., chrisv wrote:
Sn!pe wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
We should be grateful to Joel for his absurd utterances;
it makes him a perfectly excellent target for ridicule.
He's wrong about pretty-much everything.
Oh no! That suggests that the man in a bad wig who sodomizes him and he calls his "girlfriend" might not really be a woman!
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12/22/25 9:39 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
We should be grateful to Joel for his absurd utterances;
it makes him a perfectly excellent target for ridicule.
Apple users are that.
That's nice, dear; now run along and play in the traffic.
Hypocrisy.--
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Hypocrisy.
On 12/24/25 10:58 AM, Sn!pe wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Hypocrisy.
Objectively, I am cool because of the tech I prefer.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
Objectively, I am cool because of the tech I prefer.
ITYM 'subjectively'; objectively you are blinkered and sef-deluded.
Check your dictionary and Merry Xmyth!
On 12/22/25 9:30 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
I realize that people who aren't so cool won't be able to perceive it.
On 2025-12-24 06:23, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 9:30 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
I realize that people who aren't so cool won't be able to perceive it.
Do you know what a "putz" is?
On 12/24/25 5:47 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-24 06:23, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 9:30 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
I realize that people who aren't so cool won't be able to perceive it.
Do you know what a "putz" is?
It's true that I'm being a jerk or putz, but it's also objectively true
that Apple is for geeks.
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use,And yet you've never been able to express how.
objectively, are for cool people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is
OK, for those who are less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior.
On 2025-12-24 15:08, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/24/25 5:47 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-24 06:23, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 9:30 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
I realize that people who aren't so cool won't be able to perceive it.
Do you know what a "putz" is?
It's true that I'm being a jerk or putz, but it's also objectively
true that Apple is for geeks.
"Objectively" means something other than what you think it does, putz.
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for cool
people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who are less
technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior.
And yet you've never been able to express how.
On 12/24/25 6:21 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-24 15:08, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/24/25 5:47 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2025-12-24 06:23, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 9:30 PM, Alan wrote:Do you know what a "putz" is?
On 2025-12-22 18:02, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/22/25 5:45 PM, Sn!pe wrote:
I am cooler and better put together.
Really? You really think that? Just look at you...
I'm not using Apple crapware.
Do you not know what a "circular argument" is?
I realize that people who aren't so cool won't be able to perceive it. >>>>
It's true that I'm being a jerk or putz, but it's also objectively
true that Apple is for geeks.
"Objectively" means something other than what you think it does, putz.
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for cool
people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who are
less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior.
And yet you've never been able to express how.
Apple is low-key.
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for cool
people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who are
less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior.
And yet you've never been able to express how.
Apple is low-key.
In what way?
On 12/24/25 8:16 PM, Alan wrote:
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for cool
people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who are
less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior.
And yet you've never been able to express how.
Apple is low-key.
In what way?
Don't feel bad,
though, it worked out well for MS Office and AdobeFailure to answer the question noted.
Photoshop, and so forth, they thrive on the Mac. Winblows has its nice points but isn't really better *in every respect*, which is why macOS
and Linux maintain such loyal followings. I would never buy another
Mac, but I understand the kinds of uses that would lead one to do it.
Their presence in the market does matter, because it serves a
substantial need among the public of consumers.
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for coolAnd yet you've never been able to express how.
people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who are >>>>>> less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior. >>>>
Apple is low-key.
In what way?
Don't feel bad,
I don't feel bad.
Why would i?
though, it worked out well for MS Office and Adobe Photoshop, and so
forth, they thrive on the Mac. Winblows has its nice points but isn't
really better *in every respect*, which is why macOS and Linux
maintain such loyal followings. I would never buy another Mac, but I
understand the kinds of uses that would lead one to do it. Their
presence in the market does matter, because it serves a substantial
need among the public of consumers.
Failure to answer the question noted.
On 12/24/25 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for cool >>>>>>> people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who are >>>>>>> less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior. >>>>>And yet you've never been able to express how.
Apple is low-key.
In what way?
Don't feel bad,
I don't feel bad.
Why would i?
Because you paid Apple's prices?
though, it worked out well for MS Office and Adobe Photoshop, and so
forth, they thrive on the Mac. Winblows has its nice points but
isn't really better *in every respect*, which is why macOS and Linux
maintain such loyal followings. I would never buy another Mac, but I
understand the kinds of uses that would lead one to do it. Their
presence in the market does matter, because it serves a substantial
need among the public of consumers.
Failure to answer the question noted.
The Mac interface is under-developed.
Even being a Unix flavor, it
fails to act as one out of the box compared to a Linux distro,
so it has
to be judged by macOS apps specifically, and there are stellar ones as I mentioned and acknowledged, but on the whole it's quirky software by comparison to what is common with Windows and Linux systems.
This is
why, objectively, I am right,
and you are the Apple fanboy to see asIn ways that you can never seem to identify with any specificity.
missing the big picture of why you prefer something that is in fact inferior.
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for cool >>>>>>>> people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who >>>>>>>> are less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively >>>>>>>> inferior.
And yet you've never been able to express how.
Apple is low-key.
In what way?
Don't feel bad,
I don't feel bad.
Why would i?
Because you paid Apple's prices?
To get a product that works very well.
though, it worked out well for MS Office and Adobe Photoshop, and so
forth, they thrive on the Mac. Winblows has its nice points but
isn't really better *in every respect*, which is why macOS and Linux
maintain such loyal followings. I would never buy another Mac, but
I understand the kinds of uses that would lead one to do it. Their
presence in the market does matter, because it serves a substantial
need among the public of consumers.
Failure to answer the question noted.
The Mac interface is under-developed.
In what specific ways?
Even being a Unix flavor, it fails to act as one out of the box
compared to a Linux distro,
In what way?
so it has to be judged by macOS apps specifically, and there are
stellar ones as I mentioned and acknowledged, but on the whole it's
quirky software by comparison to what is common with Windows and Linux
systems.
Give an example of this supposedly "quirky" software and how it is
claimed to be "quirky".
This is why, objectively, I am right,
Given that you never offer anything but your personal opinions, the word "objectively"...
...is objectively being used incorrectly.
and you are the Apple fanboy to see as missing the big picture of why
you prefer something that is in fact inferior.
In ways that you can never seem to identify with any specificity.
On 2025-12-24 17:26, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/24/25 8:16 PM, Alan wrote:
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for coolAnd yet you've never been able to express how.
people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who are >>>>>> less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively inferior. >>>>
Apple is low-key.
In what way?
Don't feel bad,
I don't feel bad.
Why would i?
though, it worked out well for MS Office and Adobe Photoshop, and soFailure to answer the question noted.
forth, they thrive on the Mac. Winblows has its nice points but isn't
really better *in every respect*, which is why macOS and Linux
maintain such loyal followings. I would never buy another Mac, but I
understand the kinds of uses that would lead one to do it. Their
presence in the market does matter, because it serves a substantial
need among the public of consumers.
On 2025-12-24 17:42, Joel W. Crump wrote:
On 12/24/25 8:33 PM, Alan wrote:
Samsung's phones and Linux like I use, objectively, are for cool >>>>>>>> people, who choose the best. Windows 11 is OK, for those who >>>>>>>> are less technically inclined. macOS, though, is objectively >>>>>>>> inferior.
And yet you've never been able to express how.
Apple is low-key.
In what way?
Don't feel bad,
I don't feel bad.
Why would i?
Because you paid Apple's prices?
To get a product that works very well.
though, it worked out well for MS Office and Adobe Photoshop, and so
forth, they thrive on the Mac. Winblows has its nice points but
isn't really better *in every respect*, which is why macOS and Linux
maintain such loyal followings. I would never buy another Mac, but
I understand the kinds of uses that would lead one to do it. Their
presence in the market does matter, because it serves a substantial
need among the public of consumers.
Failure to answer the question noted.
The Mac interface is under-developed.
In what specific ways?
Even being a Unix flavor, it fails to act as one out of the box
compared to a Linux distro,
In what way?
so it has to be judged by macOS apps specifically, and there are
stellar ones as I mentioned and acknowledged, but on the whole it's
quirky software by comparison to what is common with Windows and Linux
systems.
Give an example of this supposedly "quirky" software and how it is
claimed to be "quirky".
This is why, objectively, I am right,
Given that you never offer anything but your personal opinions, the word "objectively"...
...is objectively being used incorrectly.
and you are the Apple fanboy to see as missing the big picture of whyIn ways that you can never seem to identify with any specificity.
you prefer something that is in fact inferior.
He [Joel Crump] wouldn't buy another Mac because he doesn't have money to begin with.
The hardware he currently uses was purchased with money he received
during COVID and he only uses Linux because he's broke. He thought
people would pay for sex with him, but he disregarded the fact that the market for sex with ugly people isn't very large.
a special kind of idiot.--
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
a special kind of idiot.
On 12/24/25 9:49 PM, Mr n!on wrote:
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
a special kind of idiot.
Are you saying I'm not one to talk? Because, in fact, I am a genius,
and incredibly cool, attractive and sexually gifted. It's not
narcissism but casual observation of myself. I don't take great pride
in my greatness, I just enjoy the benefits of it.
a special kind of idiot.
Are you saying I'm not one to talk? Because, in fact, I am a genius,
and incredibly cool, attractive and sexually gifted. It's not
narcissism but casual observation of myself. I don't take great pride
in my greatness, I just enjoy the benefits of it.
heheheheheh...
If you weren't such a dork I wouldn't bother with you.
Consider yourself saved by your entertainment value.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
a special kind of idiot.
Joel W. Crump <joelcrump@gmail.com> wrote:
a special kind of idiot.
Ah, finally an accurate signature for Joel Crump.
No, it's you, because you're a phobe and a racist, you are OK with
computers as is required in COLA and CSMA, but you still manage to fail
to live up to a standard that you *claim* to uphold, namely
Christianity, it's the left-wing churches who have it right, but you're clinging to homophobia and whatnot, it's Satanic, it's Nazi or white nationalist, it's people like me who are the future.
No, it's you, because you're a phobe and a racist, you are OK with
computers as is required in COLA and CSMA, but you still manage to fail
to live up to a standard that you *claim* to uphold, namely
Christianity, it's the left-wing churches who have it right, but you're
clinging to homophobia and whatnot, it's Satanic, it's Nazi or white
nationalist, it's people like me who are the future.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLunlQy7nLI
I can't bear to witness.
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