On 2025-09-11 02:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:44:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Sadly this is where a lot of nescience and mysticism entered the
Ameican mind. The dawning of the Age of Acquarius etc. which amounts
to the totally unfounded superstition of astrology.
Still, that kind of stuff is harmless, isn’t it. Unlike, say, organized
religion which says that those who do not believe in your “true god”
are somehow lesser beings not deserving of respect.
If it were only respect. Some think they don't deserve to be alive, and actively kill the others.
On 11/09/2025 05:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
And that was the problem with the '80s: moderation was removed.
"Nothing succeeds like excess."
Yiou think the 1980s?
On 11/09/2025 05:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
I used to think that the good thing about capitalism wasThat isn't technically capitalism. That is more a sort of corporatism.
that it harnessed greed for the common good. No more...
Were the original ARM developers motivated by greed? Hardly.
But by the time an ARM chips is ensconced in 'shiny new thing make everything better' it is absolutely greed.
Like with most things, TOO much can be TOO much - butAnd that was the problem with the '80s: moderation was removed.
in sane moderation ......
"Nothing succeeds like excess."
Yiou think the 1980s? Hmm.
I'd say 1950s.
Before if you had money, it was hard earned and you didn't piss it away
on fripperies.
Post war people had more money than sense, and supplying them with every means possible to spend it was a corporations dream.
On 11/09/2025 02:34, c186282 wrote:
On 9/10/25 8:18 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:Take enough psychedelics and its origins are writ large and clear. It's
On Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:44:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Sadly this is where a lot of nescience and mysticism entered the
Ameican mind. The dawning of the Age of Acquarius etc. which amounts
to the totally unfounded superstition of astrology.
Still, that kind of stuff is harmless, isn’t it. Unlike, say, organized >>> religion which says that those who do not believe in your “true god” are
somehow lesser beings not deserving of respect.
Fun fact: if there is anything close to a “universal religion”, it
has to
be shamanism. It pops up in some form in just about every human culture.
Yep, looks kind of the same everywhere. Seems
to be "wired-in".
a parable about how the mind works
Hmmm ... are religions just the inherent worship
and deference to the alpha male with some human-level
intelligence thrown in ? Gods the "uber-alpha" -
intellectualizing the wired instinct ?
Shamanism isn't worship of anything. Worship comes with political
hierarchy.
Nescience leads directly to vaccine denial and resistance tomedical
advice.
On Thu, 11 Sep 2025 10:59:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/09/2025 05:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
And that was the problem with the '80s: moderation was removed.
"Nothing succeeds like excess."
Yiou think the 1980s?
Reaganomics (and its equivalent in other countries): “Greed is good”.
It had never quite been stated in such a bare-faced form before.
On 9/11/25 02:04, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-11 02:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:44:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Sadly this is where a lot of nescience and mysticism entered the
Ameican mind. The dawning of the Age of Acquarius etc. which amounts
to the totally unfounded superstition of astrology.
Still, that kind of stuff is harmless, isn’t it. Unlike, say, organized >>> religion which says that those who do not believe in your “true god” are
somehow lesser beings not deserving of respect.
Nescience leads directly to vaccine denial and resistance to medical advice.
If it were only respect. Some think they don't deserve to be alive,
and actively kill the others.
Fun fact: if there is anything close to a “universal religion”, it
has to
be shamanism. It pops up in some form in just about every human culture.
Yes it does do that. But Ancestor Worship is there as well and most religions
can be traced back to the Ancestral practicies. Possibly the best
thing about modern
religions is that they have given up the practice of human sacrifice.
But the modern religions require the sacrifice of human critical thought,
sexuality and a few other matters.
Yiou think the 1980s? Hmm.
I'd say 1950s.
Before if you had money, it was hard earned and you didn't piss it
away on fripperies.
Post war people had more money than sense, and supplying them with
every means possible to spend it was a corporations dream.
Well ... works OK, keeps most people happy most
of the time.
Or would you pref cold grey dismal USSR 'communism' ?
Have fun standing in line half the day for your
food ration .......
The book was
written before Thatcher was born but he nailed her to a tee.
On Thu, 11 Sep 2025 11:04:44 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2025-09-11 02:18, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Wed, 10 Sep 2025 08:44:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Sadly this is where a lot of nescience and mysticism entered the
Ameican mind. The dawning of the Age of Acquarius etc. which amounts
to the totally unfounded superstition of astrology.
Still, that kind of stuff is harmless, isn’t it. Unlike, say, organized >>> religion which says that those who do not believe in your “true god” >>> are somehow lesser beings not deserving of respect.
If it were only respect. Some think they don't deserve to be alive, and
actively kill the others.
Absolutely a slippery slope.
On Thu, 11 Sep 2025 10:59:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/09/2025 05:09, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
And that was the problem with the '80s: moderation was removed.
"Nothing succeeds like excess."
Yiou think the 1980s?
Reaganomics (and its equivalent in other countries): “Greed is good”.
It had never quite been stated in such a bare-faced form before.
I remember food rationing. In the cold grey dismal post-war UK
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 07:28:38 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I remember food rationing. In the cold grey dismal post-war UK
As a result of having to fight a genocidal nutcase dictator who arose
out of the chaos of a powerful country messed up by the determination of
the empires of that same UK, and France, to ensure that no new
competitor could arise to stand up to them ...
On 12/09/2025 05:32, rbowman wrote:
The book was written before Thatcher was born but he nailed her to a
tee.
So how come you know so much about Thatcher and the UK? Is it by reading books *exactly like this*?
Britain isn't what you think it is. Let's leave it there
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 07:32:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/09/2025 05:32, rbowman wrote:
The book was written before Thatcher was born but he nailed her to a
tee.
So how come you know so much about Thatcher and the UK? Is it by reading
books *exactly like this*?
Britain isn't what you think it is. Let's leave it there
So you liked Reagan in drag? Fearsome lady' he probably should have said
"May I?" before invading Grenada.
Note that "mysticism" seems ingrained/wired in
the human brain - almost the exact same stuff
across all locales and cultures over time.
It is a faulty perspective - but SO inherently
attractive. Converts reality/facts into "feelings"
instead. Far more accessible to the 99.9%
All perspectives are faulty.
On 12/09/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
Note that "mysticism" seems ingrained/wired inDidn't you ever stop to wonder why?
the human brain - almost the exact same stuff
across all locales and cultures over time.
It is a faulty perspective - but SO inherentlyAll perspectives are faulty.
attractive. Converts reality/facts into "feelings"
instead. Far more accessible to the 99.9%
Science is, ultimately, applied mysticism.
All those invisible fields and forces. Sheer superstition!
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 08:32:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
All perspectives are faulty.
Is that your perspective?
On 9/12/25 3:41 AM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 08:32:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
All perspectives are faulty.
Is that your perspective?
And all philosophies are bullshit,
including this philosophy. :-)
Really, NOT kidding very much ...
So, you think you have a good bead on things ?
The 32-bit version of Windows can run 16-bit and 8-bit programs
the 64-bit version cannot. But why can it not?
the 64-bit version cannot. But why can it not?
DOSbox, or 86box will run 16bit .EXEs under 64bit windows.
Steve Hayes wrote:
The 32-bit version of Windows can run 16-bit and 8-bit programs
16bit yes, but there's no such thing as an 8bit windows executable
the 64-bit version cannot. But why can it not?
DOSbox, or 86box will run 16bit .EXEs under 64bit windows.
On 12/09/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
Note that "mysticism" seems ingrained/wired inDidn't you ever stop to wonder why?
the human brain - almost the exact same stuff across all locales
and cultures over time.
It is a faulty perspective - but SO inherently attractive. ConvertsAll perspectives are faulty.
reality/facts into "feelings"
instead. Far more accessible to the 99.9%
Science is, ultimately, applied mysticism.
All those invisible fields and forces. Sheer superstition!
On 12/09/2025 08:21, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 07:32:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/09/2025 05:32, rbowman wrote:
The book was written before Thatcher was born but he nailed her to a
tee.
So how come you know so much about Thatcher and the UK? Is it by
reading books *exactly like this*?
Britain isn't what you think it is. Let's leave it there
So you liked Reagan in drag? Fearsome lady' he probably should have
said "May I?" before invading Grenada.
Liking doesn't come into it. I wasn't going to fuck her.
She did what had to be done, made a few mistakes, got a lot right.
Overall a good thing.
Reagan did surprisingly well for a pre dementia Hollywood cowboy.
I am now more aware of what I don't know, and what *cannot* be known.
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 17:30:32 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
Steve Hayes wrote:
The 32-bit version of Windows can run 16-bit and 8-bit programs
16bit yes, but there's no such thing as an 8bit windows executable
the 64-bit version cannot. But why can it not?
DOSbox, or 86box will run 16bit .EXEs under 64bit windows.
We used DOSbox to run a database manager for an elderly version of
db_Vista. The app used curses. If forget which version of Windows dropped ANSI.sys but the escape sequences use for positioning the cursor no longer worked. DOSbox was a little funky after I looked at the pain involved in rewriting the app I decided we could live with a little funk. Updating the codebase to use a version of db_Vista from this century wasn't going to happen either.
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 08:32:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/09/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
Note that "mysticism" seems ingrained/wired inDidn't you ever stop to wonder why?
the human brain - almost the exact same stuff across all locales
and cultures over time.
It is a faulty perspective - but SO inherently attractive. Converts >>> reality/facts into "feelings"All perspectives are faulty.
instead. Far more accessible to the 99.9%
Science is, ultimately, applied mysticism.
d
All those invisible fields and forces. Sheer superstition!
Unless the superstition agrees with your superstition then The Science is good.
Steve Hayes wrote:
The 32-bit version of Windows can run 16-bit and 8-bit programs
16bit yes, but there's no such thing as an 8bit windows executable
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 17:30:32 +0100
Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
the 64-bit version cannot. But why can it not?
DOSbox, or 86box will run 16bit .EXEs under 64bit windows.
16-bit *DOS* EXEs, yes - but you'd have to install Win 3.x under either
of those to run 16-bit Windows programs, and those would essentially be >"sandboxed;" you couldn't, say, copy & paste from an old 16-bit word >processor that knows how to read such-and-such a proprietary format to
Word or LibreOffice running natively on the host machine. 32-bit
Windows let you run 16-bit applications side-by-side with 32-bit ones,
but when it came to 64-bit Windows MS evidently decided that You Don't
Need That anymore :/
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 17:30:32 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
Steve Hayes wrote:
The 32-bit version of Windows can run 16-bit and 8-bit programs
16bit yes, but there's no such thing as an 8bit windows executable
the 64-bit version cannot. But why can it not?
DOSbox, or 86box will run 16bit .EXEs under 64bit windows.
We used DOSbox to run a database manager for an elderly version of
db_Vista. The app used curses. If forget which version of Windows dropped >ANSI.sys but the escape sequences use for positioning the cursor no longer >worked. DOSbox was a little funky after I looked at the pain involved in >rewriting the app I decided we could live with a little funk. Updating the >codebase to use a version of db_Vista from this century wasn't going to >happen either.
But this is getting a bit too far off Linux.
DOSBOX works. VirtualBox offers more control however.
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 08:32:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/09/2025 07:35, c186282 wrote:
Note that "mysticism" seems ingrained/wired in the human brain -Didn't you ever stop to wonder why?
almost the exact same stuff across all locales and cultures over
time.
It is a faulty perspective - but SO inherently attractive.All perspectives are faulty.
Converts reality/facts into "feelings" instead. Far more
accessible to the 99.9%
Science is, ultimately, applied mysticism.
All those invisible fields and forces. Sheer superstition!
Unless the superstition agrees with your superstition then The
Science is good.
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 08:29:32 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/09/2025 08:21, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 12 Sep 2025 07:32:22 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/09/2025 05:32, rbowman wrote:
The book was written before Thatcher was born but he nailed her to a >>>>> tee.
So how come you know so much about Thatcher and the UK? Is it by
reading books *exactly like this*?
Britain isn't what you think it is. Let's leave it there
So you liked Reagan in drag? Fearsome lady' he probably should have
said "May I?" before invading Grenada.
Liking doesn't come into it. I wasn't going to fuck her.
She did what had to be done, made a few mistakes, got a lot right.
Overall a good thing.
Is Britain better off these days? I realize there was a lot of water over
the dam after Thatcher.
Reagan did surprisingly well for a pre dementia Hollywood cowboy.
Reagan had a unique quality for a politician -- he realized he wasn't
expert in every field under the sun but could find people who were for the most part. He probably hated Volcker but Volcker made the tough choices.
Sometimes he wasn't watching the hen house closely enough. I'm not sure
how much he knew about Bush's little Iran-Contra project.
Or if they ask how many times I've read "The Lord of the Rings"and when
I first read it:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2025 06:32:12 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
But this is getting a bit too far off Linux.
Linux is the platform of choice for keeping retrocomputing platforms
alive. ;)
On 2025-09-07, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
Was looking at 'cloud' storage sites a little while
ago ... one demanded that the data NOT be encrypted,
even while promising their OWN 'encryption'. Guess
what's up ??? Soon, all .......
Seen on a T-shirt:
There is no Cloud. It's just someone else's computer.
I am now more aware of what I don't know, and what *cannot* be known.
For the thing that can't be known, that's just pretentious. Because you
can't understand, prove, know or whatever something, that's not enough
to prove that nobody will never be able to know it.
I am talking impossible. Like a human being on earth reaching up and touching the moon.
And still being a human being
Is Britain better off these days? I realize there was a lot of waterNo. The globalist got control and destroyed most of what she did.
over the dam after Thatcher.
On Sat, 13 Sep 2025 00:18:05 -0400, c186282 wrote:
DOSBOX works. VirtualBox offers more control however.
KISS.
On 2025-09-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2025 06:32:12 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
But this is getting a bit too far off Linux.
Linux is the platform of choice for keeping retrocomputing platforms
alive. ;)
That's a bit ironic, given the subject and initial topic of this thread
:-P
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2025-09-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2025 06:32:12 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
But this is getting a bit too far off Linux.
Linux is the platform of choice for keeping retrocomputing platforms
alive. ;)
That's a bit ironic, given the subject and initial topic of this thread
:-P
Indeed, and really NetBSD has been more dedicated to it already
anyway. But Linux dropping 32bit, if that's serious, would be a
major turn further away from old hardware support.
On 02.09.2025 15:43 John McCue wrote:
The way I read it, the day may soon come 32 bit Linux will be
sun-setted. I know if I was maintaining Linux I would also
be looking to remove all 32 bit support. *But* as a user I
will be a bit sad to see it go.
A bit yes, but just a bit.
All computers that have an x86 only CPU are more than 10 years old (the
last ones were Intel Atoms in Netbooks around 2011). Most of them are
now out of service and way too slow for most basic office tasks.
Just try to run a current webbrowser on an x86 only Intel Atom and play
a YouTube video. Very slow, if it plays at all. Same for the Core Duo
(not Core 2 Duo, they have x86_64) from the middle 2000s.
It is possible to use such systems as small servers, but the power consumption is much higher that for a new cheap one - with x86_64.
TLDR: x86 Linux is almost obsolete in most areas.
I still have 2 laptops with Pentium M, mostly useless, as most software/websites run that slow or make the system freeze.
Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
What about other UNIX-like systems? Are BSDs planning to do the same?
This is what I heard:
As already mentioned, FreeBSD is dropping 32 bit support.
OpenBSD maybe at some point but not now:
Quote from https://www.openbsd.org/i386.html
>only easy and critical security fixes are backported to i386
AFAIK DragonflyBSD never supported 32bit.
So that leaves NetBSD, from what I have seen there is no
plans for NetBSD to drop i386 support.
On 03.09.2025 10:52 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/09/2025 10:15, c186282 wrote:
On 9/3/25 4:51 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 03.09.2025 03:20 c186282 c186282 wrote:
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
Slackware plans to do so.
Although, if upstream software will stop supporting it (not only
the kernel, but compilers and linkers), it will definitely come to
an end.
32 has gone the way of 8-bit ....
Nothing really to DO about it ... tech keeps
marching on.
What, should all the distros keep a PDP-11
version ??? Come ON now !!!
Learned on a PDP-11, good unit ... but its
time is LONG LONG gone.
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
Although, no security updates and bugfixed upstream then. Rather
unlikely that people will continue to buy such devices.
It is probably true to say that ultimately if the PIOS (32bit) were
frozen at the latest level it would still be a usable option for
embedded applications almost forever.
Without bugfixes and support, I don't like such solutions. Small x64
hardware is cheap.
I mean you can still run FreeDos on a *86 if you want. Or CP/M on a
z80
Useless for current applications.
That doesn't detract from the argument that a 386SX running today's
linux wouldn't be completely unusable as a day to day desktop.
I have serious doubt that you are able to install any current
distribution on such a system. You need a kernel with just a small
portion of the features to make it possible to use only some MBs of RAM.
FYI: ~3 years ago I tried to use the Debian installer on 384 MB - it
crashed. Now images that for machines with under 16MB.
You would be better off running windows XP on it.
Will already run horrible on a Pentium 2 - with resources multiple
times of 386 machines.
And thats the point. Retro computing uses retro software as well as
retro hardware.
And is a hobby. Such old stuff sometimes still exists in companies -
but if it fails or needs to be changes, it is a PITA.
And the cost of maintaining REALLY old kit starts to
ruse and its utility starts to fall after a certain age.
Many parts of the Linux kernel are maintained by companies. I have
doubt that they will care about that old stuff. Linux already dropped
support for really old graphics cards, ISDN and other stuff that is not well-used nowadays and created issues. Nobody liked to seriously take
over.
On Wed, 3 Sep 2025 14:08:40 +0200
Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
Because other systems around it are being changed. I've had enough
with 10 y+ old Linux machines. No support for current cryptography,
no support for current SSH and such issues.
It's funny how many people here say "there is no use for X" when what
they really mean is "*I* don't have a use for X."
For many people, Wordstar running on CP/M was *all they ever needed*
to write fantastic books on.
Back in the days. Nowadays, it is common to distribute the written
files to other machines and there is already the first issue. How
many people can read those files and how can they get them?
I do my writing on a 16-year-old Asus Eee, which was underpowered when
it was new. Runs mEdit and Claws Mail like a champ, and handles major webnovel sites well enough for me to post from.
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote:
On 9/4/25 2:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
On Thu, 4 Sep 2025 15:40:20 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
Anyway as to the Asus Eee, looks like NetBSD works fine on those. Since >>>> it seems eventually NetBSD may end up as the only game in town for 32
bit, John could always migrate once Linux drops 32 bit.
https://www.q4os.org/
I installed Q4OS on the eeePC. The KDE desktop was too heavy but Trinity >>> works fine.
My EEEPC was good - but NOT insanely fast. By far
best to stick with LIGHT desktops. They exist,
even now.
Once you have started the browser, resource usage of the desktop is irrelevant.
On 2025-09-03, Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
On 03.09.2025 10:52 The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/09/2025 10:15, c186282 wrote:
On 9/3/25 4:51 AM, Marco Moock wrote:
On 03.09.2025 03:20 c186282 c186282 wrote:
DO encourage at least ONE distro to hang on to
a 32-bit version for a few more years though.
After that ....... the past is the past.
Slackware plans to do so.
Although, if upstream software will stop supporting it (not only
the kernel, but compilers and linkers), it will definitely come to
an end.
32 has gone the way of 8-bit ....
Nothing really to DO about it ... tech keeps
marching on.
What, should all the distros keep a PDP-11
version ??? Come ON now !!!
Learned on a PDP-11, good unit ... but its
time is LONG LONG gone.
I think custom Linuxes of a 32 bit flavour will be around as long as
there are being platforms made that will run them and need them.
Although, no security updates and bugfixed upstream then. Rather
unlikely that people will continue to buy such devices.
It is probably true to say that ultimately if the PIOS (32bit) were
frozen at the latest level it would still be a usable option for
embedded applications almost forever.
Without bugfixes and support, I don't like such solutions. Small x64
hardware is cheap.
I mean you can still run FreeDos on a *86 if you want. Or CP/M on a
z80
Useless for current applications.
That doesn't detract from the argument that a 386SX running today's
linux wouldn't be completely unusable as a day to day desktop.
I have serious doubt that you are able to install any current
distribution on such a system. You need a kernel with just a small
portion of the features to make it possible to use only some MBs of RAM.
FYI: ~3 years ago I tried to use the Debian installer on 384 MB - it
crashed. Now images that for machines with under 16MB.
You would be better off running windows XP on it.
Will already run horrible on a Pentium 2 - with resources multiple
times of 386 machines.
And thats the point. Retro computing uses retro software as well as
retro hardware.
And is a hobby. Such old stuff sometimes still exists in companies -
but if it fails or needs to be changes, it is a PITA.
And the cost of maintaining REALLY old kit starts to
ruse and its utility starts to fall after a certain age.
Many parts of the Linux kernel are maintained by companies. I have
doubt that they will care about that old stuff. Linux already dropped
support for really old graphics cards, ISDN and other stuff that is not
well-used nowadays and created issues. Nobody liked to seriously take
over.
OpenBSD, cwm, mupdf, mpv+yt-dlp+streamlink capped to 480p. It runs really fast under an n270 Atom.
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