I just noticed another new feature in KDE Plasma after the latest
upgrade on my Debian Unstable system: I can now drag windows using a
modifier with the left mouse button, without them coming to the front.
(By default this is Alt, I changed it to Super to avoid interfering
with Alt-click commands in Blender.)
This was a standard feature under X11, of course. But it seemed to
have disappeared with the move to Wayland. But now it works again.
On 2026-04-30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I just noticed another new feature in KDE Plasma after the latest
upgrade on my Debian Unstable system: I can now drag windows using a
modifier with the left mouse button, without them coming to the front.
(By default this is Alt, I changed it to Super to avoid interfering
with Alt-click commands in Blender.)
This was a standard feature under X11, of course. But it seemed to
have disappeared with the move to Wayland. But now it works again.
I'll wait with Wayland until it reaches somewhat feature parity with
X11. There seems to be nothing but regressions from my POV in the move
to Wayland. Odd, as usually "next gen" technology like BTRFS has been a superset, and not a subset, of what the previous tech could do.
So a chance to really reproduce initially only what is actually
needed most of the time, and move the rest to 'nice to have'
compatibility libraries.
On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 17:29:46 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
So a chance to really reproduce initially only what is actually
needed most of the time, and move the rest to 'nice to have'
compatibility libraries.
Yyyeeeaaah it's that *second* bit that's kinda the problem - providing nonessentials as a bolt-on is fine, but the Wayland devs' approach has
more typically been to insist that You Don't Need That. Like, they're
*just lately* coming around to the idea that applications ought to be
able to determine the size & position of their own windows, but since
they spent *years* arguing that it was Not Necessary And Actually Bad,
they don't even have a mechanism to provide the *option,* currently :/
Wayland is still not working on some core stuff, so it's not like
they had huge spare resource.
On 30/04/2026 13:29, Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-04-30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I just noticed another new feature in KDE Plasma after the latest
upgrade on my Debian Unstable system: I can now drag windows using a
modifier with the left mouse button, without them coming to the front.
(By default this is Alt, I changed it to Super to avoid interfering
with Alt-click commands in Blender.)
This was a standard feature under X11, of course. But it seemed to
have disappeared with the move to Wayland. But now it works again.
I'll wait with Wayland until it reaches somewhat feature parity with
X11. There seems to be nothing but regressions from my POV in the move
to Wayland. Odd, as usually "next gen" technology like BTRFS has been a
superset, and not a subset, of what the previous tech could do.
I think you need to understand what life was like back in the origins of
X windows
No one actually knew what a GUI would be used for beyond the very
limited windows and Mac environment
So they threw everything into X windows.
30 years later they realized that most of it is seldom - if ever - used
at all
So a chance to really reproduce initially only what is actually needed
most of the time, and move the rest to 'nice to have' compatibility libraries.
On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 18:02:34 +0100
Pancho <Pancho.Jones@protonmail.com> wrote:
Wayland is still not working on some core stuff, so it's not like
they had huge spare resource.
I'm prepared to believe that this is also true, but it's
*definitely* the case that they've spent years pushing back on the
idea that some extremely commonplace features of a display server
are actually needed instead of being Actually Bad And Suspicious For
Some Reason.
On 2026-04-30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I just noticed another new feature in KDE Plasma after the latest
upgrade on my Debian Unstable system: I can now drag windows using a
modifier with the left mouse button, without them coming to the front.
(By default this is Alt, I changed it to Super to avoid interfering
with Alt-click commands in Blender.)
This was a standard feature under X11, of course. But it seemed to
have disappeared with the move to Wayland. But now it works again.
I'll wait with Wayland until it reaches somewhat feature parity with
X11. There seems to be nothing but regressions from my POV in the move
to Wayland.
Le 30-04-2026, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> a écrit :
On 2026-04-30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I just noticed another new feature in KDE Plasma after the latest
upgrade on my Debian Unstable system: I can now drag windows using a
modifier with the left mouse button, without them coming to the front.
(By default this is Alt, I changed it to Super to avoid interfering
with Alt-click commands in Blender.)
This was a standard feature under X11, of course. But it seemed to
have disappeared with the move to Wayland. But now it works again.
I'll wait with Wayland until it reaches somewhat feature parity with
X11. There seems to be nothing but regressions from my POV in the move
to Wayland.
For me I see only advantages to Wayland over X11 by now. I have no
feature which were working on X11 and don't on Wayland. As I hate
overlapping Windows, I have no Window which should stay below or not.
On 30/04/2026 13:29, Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-04-30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I just noticed another new feature in KDE Plasma after the latest
upgrade on my Debian Unstable system: I can now drag windows using a
modifier with the left mouse button, without them coming to the front.
(By default this is Alt, I changed it to Super to avoid interfering
with Alt-click commands in Blender.)
This was a standard feature under X11, of course. But it seemed to
have disappeared with the move to Wayland. But now it works again.
I'll wait with Wayland until it reaches somewhat feature parity with
X11. There seems to be nothing but regressions from my POV in the move
to Wayland. Odd, as usually "next gen" technology like BTRFS has been a
superset, and not a subset, of what the previous tech could do.
I think you need to understand what life was like back in the origins of
X windows
No one actually knew what a GUI would be used for beyond the very
limited windows and Mac environment
So they threw everything into X windows.
On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 17:29:46 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
So a chance to really reproduce initially only what is actually
needed most of the time, and move the rest to 'nice to have'
compatibility libraries.
Yyyeeeaaah it's that *second* bit that's kinda the problem - providing nonessentials as a bolt-on is fine, but the Wayland devs' approach has
more typically been to insist that You Don't Need That. Like, they're
*just lately* coming around to the idea that applications ought to be
able to determine the size & position of their own windows, but since
they spent *years* arguing that it was Not Necessary And Actually Bad,
they don't even have a mechanism to provide the *option,* currently :/
Yes, that SystemD level boneheadedness of "our way or the highway" is
what has lots of folks disliking Wayland just as much as they dislike >SystemD.
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Yes, that SystemD level boneheadedness of "our way or the highway" is
what has lots of folks disliking Wayland just as much as they dislike >>SystemD.
What is so important about the D that you capitalize it, and why isnt
it WaylanD?
The reality is, we live in a less trusting world. There are more badSo they say! Except that, when they finally get it through their heads
players out there trying to get one over on unsuspecting users. And do
it automatically, in an indiscriminate mass attack, so nobody can feel
safe just because you think nobody knows who you are.
Wayland is designed from the ground up for such a world. But that’s
just one of its features.
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware.
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
Unfortunately, the mainstream distros, which have enslaved the
majority of GNU/Linux users, are completely seduced by the idea of
daemons which they wrap in the bogus concept of "modernism."
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Yes, that SystemD level boneheadedness of "our way or the highway" is
what has lots of folks disliking Wayland just as much as they dislike
SystemD.
What is so important about the D that you capitalize it, and why isnt
it WaylanD?
Idiots in high places is always a disturbing thought.
On Thu, 30 Apr 2026 22:26:49 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
The reality is, we live in a less trusting world. There are more
bad players out there trying to get one over on unsuspecting users.
And do it automatically, in an indiscriminate mass attack, so
nobody can feel safe just because you think nobody knows who you
are.
Wayland is designed from the ground up for such a world. But that’s
just one of its features.
So they say!
Except that, when they finally get it through their heads that
people won't use their stuff without this or that concession, they
knuckle under (as they did with application-specified window size
and position,) ...
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/264Except that, when they finally get it through their heads that
people won't use their stuff without this or that concession, they
knuckle under (as they did with application-specified window size
and position,) ...
Where has there been such a concession?
On Fri, 1 May 2026 22:41:52 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Except that, when they finally get it through their heads that
people won't use their stuff without this or that concession, they
knuckle under (as they did with application-specified window size
and position,) ...
Where has there been such a concession?
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/264
^ Right here, where after years of insisting that You Don't Need
That & It Can't Be Done, only to run up against the fact that
*nix-friendly prosumer developers like KiCad flatly refuse to
re-work their entire UX and workflow to suit the whims of the
Wayland devs, the Wayland devs... gave in and started working on a
protocol extension to add support for application-specified window
size & position.
On Fri, 01 May 2026 22:21:48 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Yes, that SystemD level boneheadedness of "our way or the highway" is >>>what has lots of folks disliking Wayland just as much as they dislike >>>SystemD.
What is so important about the D that you capitalize it, and why isnt
it WaylanD?
The "D" indicates "daemon" which is a process that runs constantly
in the background,
which in my philosophy of computing should never
be permitted or even necessary.
For a standalone workstation any daemon is an anomaly
that only
serves inessential purposes, many of which are totally cosmetic.
Unfortunately, the mainstream distros, which have enslaved the
majority of GNU/Linux users, are completely seduced by the idea
of daemons which they wrap in the bogus concept of "modernism."
Idiots in high places is always a disturbing thought.
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Except that, when they finally get it through their heads that
people won't use their stuff without this or that concession, they
knuckle under (as they did with application-specified window size
and position,) ...
Where has there been such a concession?
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/264
^ Right here, where after years of insisting that You Don't Need That &
It Can't Be Done, only to run up against the fact that *nix-friendly
prosumer developers like KiCad flatly refuse to re-work their entire UX
and workflow to suit the whims of the Wayland devs, the Wayland devs...
gave in and started working on a protocol extension to add support for application-specified window size & position.
You know, as they could've done *at any point prior.*
The "D" indicates "daemon" which is a process that runs constantly
in the background, which in my philosophy of computing should never
be permitted or even necessary.
Idiots in high places is always a disturbing thought.
On Fri, 1 May 2026 13:36:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware.
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
The sooner you get rid of VMware, the better.
On 2026-05-02 00:36, Lawrence DOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2026 13:36:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware.
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
The sooner you get rid of VMware, the better.
Eventually.
In article <u31hcmxgjt.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>,
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-02 00:36, Lawrence DOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2026 13:36:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware.
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
The sooner you get rid of VMware, the better.
Eventually.
Why? What is wrong with VMware?
Or is this just more of LDO being cranky?
In article <u31hcmxgjt.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>,
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-02 00:36, Lawrence DOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2026 13:36:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware.
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
The sooner you get rid of VMware, the better.
Eventually.
Why? What is wrong with VMware?
gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
In article <u31hcmxgjt.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>,
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-02 00:36, Lawrence DOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2026 13:36:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware.
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
The sooner you get rid of VMware, the better.
Eventually.
Why? What is wrong with VMware?
Since they were borged by Broadcom they have multiplied their prices.
Even big companies are contemplating to change virtualization becuse
its just too darn expensive.
Then there could be Xen o KVM. As far as I can see, much more
complicated,
but maintenance is assured by the distro.
In article <10t4npb$1deoc$1@news1.tnib.de>,
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> wrote:
gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
In article <u31hcmxgjt.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>,
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-02 00:36, Lawrence DOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2026 13:36:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware. >>>>>>
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
The sooner you get rid of VMware, the better.
Eventually.
Why? What is wrong with VMware?
Since they were borged by Broadcom they have multiplied their prices.
Even big companies are contemplating to change virtualization becuse its >>just too darn expensive.
OK, thanks.
I haven't done anything with VMware for at least 2 decades (mid oughts).
It was all free back when I was playing with it.
Nothing good ever comes from companies buying other companies.
I don't know about other distros but VirtualBox doesn't play well on Linux Mint for anyone considering it as an alternative to VMWare. It appears to install until you actually try to use it.
On Sat, 2 May 2026 11:52:04 -0000 (UTC), Kenny McCormack wrote:
In article <10t4npb$1deoc$1@news1.tnib.de>,
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> wrote:
Since they were borged by Broadcom they have multiplied their prices. >>>Even big companies are contemplating to change virtualization becuse its >>>just too darn expensive.
OK, thanks.
I haven't done anything with VMware for at least 2 decades (mid oughts).
It was all free back when I was playing with it.
Nothing good ever comes from companies buying other companies.
I don't know about other distros but VirtualBox doesn't play well on Linux >Mint for anyone considering it as an alternative to VMWare. It appears to >install until you actually try to use it.
In article <10t4npb$1deoc$1@news1.tnib.de>,
Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam2616@zugschl.us> wrote:
gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:
In article <u31hcmxgjt.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>,
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-02 00:36, Lawrence DOliveiro wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2026 13:36:35 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I have one important grudge: it simply doesn't run in my hardware. >>>>>>
The hardware where I have tried it is vmware player, with no 3D
support from the host.
The sooner you get rid of VMware, the better.
Eventually.
Why? What is wrong with VMware?
Since they were borged by Broadcom they have multiplied their prices.
Even big companies are contemplating to change virtualization becuse
its just too darn expensive.
OK, thanks.
On 02/05/2026 14:32, rbowman wrote:
I don't know about other distros but VirtualBox doesn't play well on
Linux Mint for anyone considering it as an alternative to VMWare. It
appears to install until you actually try to use it.
Runs fine here..
Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
The "D" indicates "daemon" which is a process that runs constantly
in the background, which in my philosophy of computing should never
be permitted or even necessary.
I have never seen that d being capitalized other than systemd's d, and
it's a sure sign of a hater.
So you're also against init (which is a daemon without d), necessary
to spawn sshd and the login processes?
Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
The "D" indicates "daemon" which is a process that runs constantly
in the background, which in my philosophy of computing should never
be permitted or even necessary.
I have never seen that d being capitalized other than systemd's d,
and it's a sure sign of a hater.
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Yes, that SystemD level boneheadedness of "our way or the highway" is
what has lots of folks disliking Wayland just as much as they dislike
SystemD.
What is so important about the D that you capitalize it, and why isnt
it WaylanD?
Le 30-04-2026, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> a écrit :
On 2026-04-30, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I just noticed another new feature in KDE Plasma after the latest
upgrade on my Debian Unstable system: I can now drag windows using a
modifier with the left mouse button, without them coming to the front.
(By default this is Alt, I changed it to Super to avoid interfering
with Alt-click commands in Blender.)
This was a standard feature under X11, of course. But it seemed to
have disappeared with the move to Wayland. But now it works again.
I'll wait with Wayland until it reaches somewhat feature parity with
X11. There seems to be nothing but regressions from my POV in the move
to Wayland.
For me I see only advantages to Wayland over X11 by now. I have no
feature which were working on X11 and don't on Wayland. As I hate
overlapping Windows, I have no Window which should stay below or not.
But using sometimes more than one screen, with different resolutions,
X11 is just shit. If I have one browser tab on my laptop and one browser
tab on a big screen, then either I can't read what's on the big screen because it's to tiny, or I have huge characters which take all the
screen on my laptop and can't have enough displayed. And that is, for
me, a huge feature provided by Wayland which is enough to put X11 in a museum.
Are there many graphical X programs which won't run under Wayland, or is there some compatibility?
Are there many graphical X programs which won't run under Wayland,
or is there some compatibility?
On Sun, 3 May 2026 12:34:27 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Are there many graphical X programs which won't run under Wayland,
or is there some compatibility?
Wayland DEs currently include the “XWayland” compatibility layer. This
is described as having “limitations”, but I’m not sure what they might be.
I know I can run xeyes, and use that to distinguish X11-based apps
from native Wayland ones; the eyes keep tracking when the mouse moves
into a window from one of the former, but stop when I get to one from
the latter.
I can’t see the point in it, myself. Even I can think of a way theYes, as you've repeatedly argued, all it would take is for the KiCad
KiCad folks could have solved their problem without requiring special treatment from Wayland.
If a user moves a window to a particular location, or configures aIn the general case, I'd agree - but UI conventions on the *nix desktop
particular rule in their window manager about how menus behave, or
where application windows go, etc etc etc then the application should
not be allowed to override that.
This is _not_ inconsistent with applications that want to createMaybe so - but Wayland is 17 years old at this point, while MR264 is ~2
multiple windows in a particular spatial relationship to one another,
but it does mean that just specifying absolute coordinates isn’t going
to do the job: rather it means that such applications need a way to communicate the desired relationship. AIUI, MR264 is an approach to implementing exactly that.
One day it will be Wayland
Even I can think of a way the KiCad folks could have solved theirOh right, you've *also* proposed that they implement an entire window-
problem without requiring special treatment from Wayland.
On Fri, 1 May 2026 23:07:04 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I can’t see the point in it, myself. Even I can think of a way the
KiCad folks could have solved their problem without requiring
special treatment from Wayland.
Yes, as you've repeatedly argued, all it would take is for the KiCad
devs to completely alter the layout and workflow of their
application ...
On Fri, 1 May 2026 23:07:04 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Even I can think of a way the KiCad folks could have solved their
problem without requiring special treatment from Wayland.
Oh right, you've *also* proposed that they implement an entire
window- manager system within the confines of a single *actual*
window, as in Blender, and this may be what you're referring to
here.
Which, again, would require that they spend a massive amount
of development effort to suit the demands of a minority of a
minority of their userbase ...
... while making the user experience different for everyone else for
no reason.
I can live without xpenguins and xsnow but it would be the 'end of
an era', as one of the first things that stuck in my mind, when
first using linux were all these cool little X toy programs (like
oneko), and to me they are an integral part of my personal Linux
experience.
I've heard of XWayland, but wasn't sure whether it would just allow you
to run a particular app in a window, or provide a more comprehensive compatibility layer. I can live without xpenguins and xsnow but it
would be the 'end of an era', as one of the first things that stuck in
my mind, when first using linux were all these cool little X toy
programs (like oneko), and to me they are an integral part of my
personal Linux experience.
All of these can be discontiguous regions of pixels, with custom areasSo, re-implementing a window manager within the confines of a window -
drawn to look like suitable window decorations to look like separate
windows, and the user need be none the wiser. When the user clicks on
one of these decoration areas (since they are within the content area
of the window, would they be “interior decorators”?), the app itself
can handle the relocation of that piece of the overall application
window. And it has total control over how any overlap with other of
its pieces might appear and behave.
Yes, I'm sure there's a bunch of people out there just chomping at theWhich, again, would require that they spend a massive amount
of development effort to suit the demands of a minority of a
minority of their userbase ...
That I doubt. I am sure there are sufficient Linux users that the
level of Linux developer talent to pull this off would also follow.
On Mon, 4 May 2026 23:52:16 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
All of these can be discontiguous regions of pixels, with custom areas
drawn to look like suitable window decorations to look like separate
windows, and the user need be none the wiser. When the user clicks on
one of these decoration areas (since they are within the content area
of the window, would they be “interior decorators”?), the app itself
can handle the relocation of that piece of the overall application
window. And it has total control over how any overlap with other of
its pieces might appear and behave.
So, re-implementing a window manager within the confines of a window -
one which would have no relation to the user's actual, preferred window manager, so there'd be no way for them to maintain consistency between $APPLICATION pseudo-windows and *everything else* in the user's desktop environment (which the X11 way of doing things provides for free.)
Sounds like a real win!
Just for the record, you are arguing with the local group troll.
On Tue, 5 May 2026 15:57:29 -0000 (UTC)
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Just for the record, you are arguing with the local group troll.
If we cut every neurodivergent person with insane opinions and no
ability to let go of bad ideas out of the discussion, this group
basically wouldn't exist.
So, re-implementing a window manager within the confines of a window
- one which would have no relation to the user's actual, preferred
window manager ...
Strange. I thought you said that Wayland would only account for someWayland is the display server; I'm talking about the window manager,
small minority of KiCad users. Now you’re describing it as “the user’s actual, preferred window manager” ...
Maybe the KiCad folk should see the writing in the wall ... ?*Why* should they? Clearly this works for them, and for their paying
Worth mentioning that apps like Photoshop and GIMP used to have that
same kind of multiwindow interface, before they switched to the current single-window interface.
On Tue, 5 May 2026 21:52:52 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Maybe the KiCad folk should see the writing in the wall ... ?
*Why* should they? Clearly this works for them, and for their paying customers ...
You're assuming they don't - but either way, that's their affair and isMaybe the KiCad folk should see the writing in the wall ... ?
*Why* should they? Clearly this works for them, and for their paying customers ...
Maybe it doesn’t work as well as it should. The only way to be sure is
to do actual user-interface testing.
You're assuming they don't - but either way, that's their affair and is
not at *all* germane to the question of whether it's reasonable of you
to expect application developers to redesign their entire layout/work-
flow to suit the idiosyncracies of the Wayland devs' worldview.
In article <20260505091009.00000911@gmail.com>,
John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2026 15:57:29 -0000 (UTC)
Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Just for the record, you are arguing with the local group troll.
If we cut every neurodivergent person with insane opinions and no
ability to let go of bad ideas out of the discussion, this group
basically wouldn't exist.
Perhaps. But Lawrence really isn't worth anyone's time. Either
he is only a troll, or he is simply an idiot. Neither deserves
response.
- Dan C.
I've used GIMP as the poster child of poor UX design,
but I haven't tried
the latest version
I've used GIMP as the poster child of poor UX design,
Ha! You too!. Although libre office word is a good second place
The mainstream distros are in de facto control of GNU/Linux.
On Wed, 06 May 2026 16:30:47 +0000, Leroy H wrote:
The mainstream distros are in de facto control of GNU/Linux.
Who decides what is “mainstream”?
Who decides what is “mainstream”?
Only the public. The highest-ranking distros
vary over time
Canonical probably has the most influence of
all ... and you can see their foul stench in
a number of related distros.
On Mon, 4 May 2026 12:51:17 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
I can live without xpenguins and xsnow but it would be the 'end of
an era', as one of the first things that stuck in my mind, when
first using linux were all these cool little X toy programs (like
oneko), and to me they are an integral part of my personal Linux
experience.
Wayland is not getting rid of the fun, I assure you. Even Jamie
Zawinski, curator of the XScreenSaver collection, has stopped
complaining about the fact that it won’t let him implement his custom screen lock, and is now concentrating on getting the pretty displays themselves working.
On Mon, 4 May 2026 12:51:17 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
One day it will be Wayland
There will also be X11Libre:
<https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver>
Already 606 commits since last week!
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
On Mon, 4 May 2026 23:52:16 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
All of these can be discontiguous regions of pixels, with custom areas
drawn to look like suitable window decorations to look like separate
windows, and the user need be none the wiser. When the user clicks on
one of these decoration areas (since they are within the content area
of the window, would they be “interior decorators”?), the app itself
can handle the relocation of that piece of the overall application
window. And it has total control over how any overlap with other of
its pieces might appear and behave.
So, re-implementing a window manager within the confines of a window -
one which would have no relation to the user's actual, preferred window manager, so there'd be no way for them to maintain consistency between $APPLICATION pseudo-windows and *everything else* in the user's desktop environment (which the X11 way of doing things provides for free.)
Sounds like a real win!
Which, again, would require that they spend a massive amount
of development effort to suit the demands of a minority of a
minority of their userbase ...
That I doubt. I am sure there are sufficient Linux users that the
level of Linux developer talent to pull this off would also follow.
Yes, I'm sure there's a bunch of people out there just chomping at the
bit to reinvent the window manager from first principles inside another window manager, for the sake of saving the Wayland devs from having to
offer feature parity with X11 in their X11 replacement.
Eminently plausible!
On Wed, 6 May 2026 08:43:47 -0700, John Ames wrote:
You're assuming they don't - but either way, that's their affair and is
not at *all* germane to the question of whether it's reasonable of you
to expect application developers to redesign their entire layout/work-
flow to suit the idiosyncracies of the Wayland devs' worldview.
It is an excellent argument but it is also a losing battle.
The mainstream distros are in de facto control of GNU/Linux. They
make the decisions as to what the future will be, and the vast hordes
of users, who depend entirely on distros, will only obediently follow.
There are alternatives but such projects will always lack the sufficient manpower and resources to compete with the mainstream distros, most of which have large corporate backing.
The dream of a truly free (as in "freedom" and not "beer") operating system is already quite dead.
Watch what happens when Torvalds retires.
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has been considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again, as the
people who discarded these ideas reimplement them to solve problems they created.
On 2026-05-04, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
X never was great. It was rubbish from the start - but it was the only
gane in town.
The problem with opinionated developers, is they have a mentality where
they think that they, and not the user, get to decide how everyone
perceives things. I find that there is a particular political bent,
which is prominent in Open Source, which has this model of the world.
"We know better, and we presume that people will follow us".
It may take a while, but if the platform doesn't suit the user, the user
will move.
In the end, the user dicates the future, especially when they DO have choices. All another distro has to do is put its hand up and say "We don't have this bullshit"
On Thu, 7 May 2026 16:53:28 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 2026-05-04, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
X never was great. It was rubbish from the start - but it was the only
gane in town.
What what you know? You've never accomplished anything worthwhile
in your entire spurious existence -- except being a boorish Usenet
troll.
On Wed, 6 May 2026 22:06:35 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Who decides what is “mainstream”?
Only the public. The highest-ranking distros
vary over time
Do they?
The multiplicity of distros is only an illusion.
The vast majority of distros are derived from the
BIG THREE: Debian, RedHat, and ArchLinux.
Thus, choice and freedom are also illusions.
Any remaining bastions will not survive. (LFS
has already folded.)
Only the deluded will disagree.
Canonical probably has the most influence of
all ... and you can smell their foul stench in
a number of related distros.
Surprisingly, you got that right.
That bloated chrome-dome known as Steve Balmer could
not have caused as much degradation to GNU/Linux as
has Ubuntu.
The problem with opinionated developers, is they have a mentality
where they think that they, and not the user, get to decide how
everyone perceives things. I find that there is a particular
political bent, which is prominent in Open Source, which has this
model of the world. "We know better, and we presume that people will
follow us".
But from what I've seen, people will put up with almost any
indignity, as long as it's shiny.
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has been considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again ...
On 2026-05-04, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
There will also be X11Libre:
<https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver>
Already 606 commits since last week!
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
I heard some people took offence at the guy who maintains it, for some
reason or another. I appreciate the effort though I'll have to try it
out but it seems like at some point or another, as toolkits drop X
support, an X Compatibility layer will be the way forward, not XLibre.
On 2026-05-07, Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
The problem with opinionated developers, is they have a mentality where
they think that they, and not the user, get to decide how everyone
perceives things. I find that there is a particular political bent,
which is prominent in Open Source, which has this model of the world.
"We know better, and we presume that people will follow us".
It may take a while, but if the platform doesn't suit the user, the user
will move.
In the end, the user dicates the future, especially when they DO have
choices. All another distro has to do is put its hand up and say "We don't >> have this bullshit"
I wish I could share your optimism. But from what I've seen, people
will put up with almost any indignity, as long as it's shiny. For
the most part, people will just shrug their shoulders and accept it
as a part of "progress".
As you pointed out above, this applies not just to computers but
to politics in general - and the peepul have gone along with all
sorts of stupid things for centuries. Remember that old saying,
"Suppose they gave a war and no one came?" Look how far that one got.
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has been
considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again ...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the GUI
should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
That idea had its heyday in the 1990s, and you’ll notice that the only current systems that keep it are proprietary hangovers from that era.
And open-source ones that consciously try to emulate them, for reasons
known only to their aficionados (Haiku, ReactOS).
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
On 2026-05-04, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
X never was great. It was rubbish from the start - but it was the only
gane in town.
On 2026-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-04, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
X never was great. It was rubbish from the start - but it was the only
gane in town.
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first started
using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead.
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think the
issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around, but how disruptive the replacement is. Wayland does seem a step in the right direction, but I had issues with it, and I'm of the mind that if you are going to step in for something big, you have to make concessions and compromise to support the past.
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has been
considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again ...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the GUI
should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
That idea had its heyday in the 1990s, and you’ll notice that the only
current systems that keep it are proprietary hangovers from that era.
And open-source ones that consciously try to emulate them, for reasons
known only to their aficionados (Haiku, ReactOS).
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
Right now my limited exposure to Wayland does not make it an impossible choice.
You are kind of right, but the thing is, alternatives to come along.
Thats why, even in politics, some parts of the West are worried about so called "fringe parties". One party here has surged in the polls, being niche, and is challenging the two major parties. Its slow, but it does happen.
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has been
considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again ...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the GUI
should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
That idea had its heyday in the 1990s, and you’ll notice that the only >>> current systems that keep it are proprietary hangovers from that era.
And open-source ones that consciously try to emulate them, for reasons
known only to their aficionados (Haiku, ReactOS).
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
MS Windows for nearly its entire lifetime.
MS has made some changes to isolate the GUI from the core OS kernel,
but even modern Win11 install is more "monolithic" than X running as a
user process on Linux.
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has
been considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again
...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the
GUI should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
On Wed, 6 May 2026 04:11:56 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Maybe the KiCad folk should see the writing in the wall ... ?
*Why* should they? Clearly this works for them, and for their
paying customers ...
Maybe it doesn’t work as well as it should. The only way to be sure
is to do actual user-interface testing.
You're assuming they don't - but either way, that's their affair and
is not at *all* germane to the question of whether it's reasonable
of you to expect application developers to redesign their entire
layout/work- flow to suit the idiosyncracies of the Wayland devs'
worldview.
Wayland does seem a step in the right direction, but I had issues
with it, and I'm of the mind that if you are going to step in for
something big, you have to make concessions and compromise to
support the past.
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first started
using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead.
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think the
issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around, but
how disruptive the replacement is.
I’ve already laid out all the options for you. I’ve shown you how they can carry forward their multi-window style, while actually reducingI mean, ultimately it isn't *me* you need to convince - I have no say
clutter. You didn’t like that. I’ve pointed out that most other major content-creation apps are moving to custom layouts within a single
overall application window -- which is a technique well-suited to
complex workflows. Yet you don’t like that either.
What else am I supposed to do? Tell you to go fuck yourself, maybe?Well, for one, you could probably stand to take a nap.
On Fri, 8 May 2026 12:54:33 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
You are kind of right, but the thing is, alternatives to come along.
Thats why, even in politics, some parts of the West are worried about so
called "fringe parties". One party here has surged in the polls, being
niche, and is challenging the two major parties. Its slow, but it does
happen.
In this country Ross Perot's party was the only one that wasn't a complete joke in my lifetime and all he accomplished was to get Clinton elected.
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:45:54 -0000 (UTC)You mena the design/workflow that put me off KiCAD forever?
Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
I’ve already laid out all the options for you. I’ve shown you how they >> can carry forward their multi-window style, while actually reducing
clutter. You didn’t like that. I’ve pointed out that most other major
content-creation apps are moving to custom layouts within a single
overall application window -- which is a technique well-suited to
complex workflows. Yet you don’t like that either.
I mean, ultimately it isn't *me* you need to convince - I have no say
in the decisions of the KiCad devs. I'm simply pointing out that *A.*
your proposed solution would require them to expend a bunch of extra
effort to preserve the design/workflow that they've found works for
their userbase,
The UK and some others have LOTS of parties,
which mostly seem aimed at keeping the main two in charge - places to
safely drain-off the 'nutter' votes.
BTW, it didn't even load 'yast2' - had to use zypper to install that.
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The UK and some others have LOTS of parties,
which mostly seem aimed at keeping the main two in charge - places to
safely drain-off the 'nutter' votes.
'Borgen' is a very interesting series about Danish politics and the
sausage making involved with forming a government. The parties are
fictional but closely resemble the actual ones. There are a few of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Denmark
The current PM, Mette Frederiksen, is a Social Democrat but has a
coalition with Venstre and the Moderates. Despite meaning 'left' Venstre
is center right. The Moderates is a new party that was named after the fictional one in 'Borgen', and leans right. Strange bedfellows. The SD
might lean left but unlike the US Democrats its immigration policy is
'Sweden is that way. Keep moving' unless you're a white, Christian
Ukrainian.
BTW, it didn't even load 'yast2' - had to use zypper to install that.
Yast2 was replaced by MyrLyn if you want a graphical installer. It looks a lot like yast. Yast wasn't getting much love and changes in Ruby meant a
lot of rework. Ruby was obscure with most of the documentation in
Japanese until Ruby on Rails made it into a shooting star. Rails doesn't scale well and its better ideas found their way to Django and frameworks
in other languages.
As an aside, Hansson, who developed Rails, pissed off the Rails people by supporting the British anti-immigration movement. his current project says
up front that it's opinionated. Cycling back to Borgen, he is a Dane.
https://omarchy.org/
Omarchy uses Hyprland which has also pissed off its own set of snowflakes
so when Framework Computers donated to Omarchy it rippled to another batch
of Karens.
Didn't see MyrLyn in the menus either ... will try to install it with
zypper.
Just make X great again.
The problem with opinionated developers, is they have a mentality where
they think that they, and not the user, get to decide how everyone
perceives things. I find that there is a particular political bent,
which is prominent in Open Source, which has this model of the world.
"We know better, and we presume that people will follow us".
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The UK and some others have LOTS of parties,
which mostly seem aimed at keeping the main two in charge - places to
safely drain-off the 'nutter' votes.
'Borgen' is a very interesting series about Danish politics and the
sausage making involved with forming a government. The parties are
fictional but closely resemble the actual ones. There are a few of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Denmark
The current PM, Mette Frederiksen, is a Social Democrat but has a
coalition with Venstre and the Moderates. Despite meaning 'left' Venstre
is center right. The Moderates is a new party that was named after the fictional one in 'Borgen', and leans right. Strange bedfellows. The SD
might lean left but unlike the US Democrats its immigration policy is
'Sweden is that way. Keep moving' unless you're a white, Christian
Ukrainian.
On 5/8/26 23:31, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:
In any case, I'll still maintain that "3rd parties" are
mostly intended as garbage dumpsters for the 'nutters' -
and thus protect the MAJOR parties.
BTW, it didn't even load 'yast2' - had to use zypper to install
that.
Yast2 was replaced by MyrLyn if you want a graphical installer. It
looks a
lot like yast. Yast wasn't getting much love and changes in Ruby meant a
lot of rework. Ruby was obscure with most of the documentation in
Japanese until Ruby on Rails made it into a shooting star. Rails doesn't
scale well and its better ideas found their way to Django and frameworks
in other languages.
Didn't see MyrLyn in the menus either ... will try
to install it with zypper.
In any case, I'll still maintain that "3rd parties" are
mostly intended as garbage dumpsters for the 'nutters' -
and thus protect the MAJOR parties.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 00:48:30 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Didn't see MyrLyn in the menus either ... will try to install it with
zypper.
I see two entries on the System menu. One requires a password and is the
sudo version, the other is a read only version. I installed the KDE/Plasma version and the Myrlyn 'About' says it uses Qt. I don't know if it is on
the GNOME version. I originally loaded that one into the VM but plain
vanilla GNOME sucks so badly I didn't spend much time before
reinstalling. At least Ubuntu tweaks GNOME enough that it has a taskbar.
I thing that's the GNOME 'dash on panel' extension.
To install yast2 I had to uninstall busybox-hostname. yast2 doesn't show
up on the menu but starting it from the command line results in a TUI that looks like it escaped from 1995 and doesn't do much.
What do you believe? That people abandoning X11 were stopping
maintaining it because they were obeying Red Hat? That people starting Wayland from scratch were doing it just to piss off you and your kind?
Le 07-05-2026, Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> a écrit :
The problem with opinionated developers, is they have a mentality where
they think that they, and not the user, get to decide how everyone
perceives things. I find that there is a particular political bent,
which is prominent in Open Source, which has this model of the world.
"We know better, and we presume that people will follow us".
That's the difference between a paid developer in a company and a FOSS developer. The paid developer is paid to do what the company pays him
for. And the company cares about the consumer's needs (ie: end users)
for obvious reasons.
The FOSS developer does what he want to do. He has a need and what it
does must fulfill that need. If users don't care about that need and
want something else, they just use something else. Or they improve it.
But they don't have any right to request a developer to do what they
want him to do.
That's a huge issue in the FOSS world because end users consider that
FOSS developers are their own slaves and they must do what they want. The number of burn out is increasing because of fucking end users who are
only parasites pressuring FOSS developers.
On Fri, 8 May 2026 13:04:06 -0000 (UTC)
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first started
using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead.
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think the
issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around, but
how disruptive the replacement is.
Yeah, that's the thing; XWindows was *always* a janky, inelegant system
and is certainly ripe for replacement - but it's irksome to have the
leading candidate run by developers with a fairly blinkered view of GUI design and an overall autocratic attitude towards user needs/feedback.
On 08/05/2026 14:04, Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-04, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> wrote:
Screw Wayland. Just make X great again.
X never was great. It was rubbish from the start - but it was the only
gane in town.
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first started
using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead.
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think the
issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around, but how
disruptive the replacement is. Wayland does seem a step in the right
direction, but I had issues with it, and I'm of the mind that if you are
going to step in for something big, you have to make concessions and
compromise to support the past.
There is always a point here adopting something new outweighs the disadvantages of letting go of the old.
For me with Linux versus Windows as a desktop that was in the mid noughties.
Right now my limited exposure to Wayland does not make it an impossible choice. :-)
On Fri, 8 May 2026 12:56:46 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has
been considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again
...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the
GUI should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
There was this system called “Microsoft Windows”. You may have heard
of it.
Well the question is, what does Wayland give me, that X11 does not? I
don't mean "clean code" or "less jank" or other stuff that matters not
one jot to me as a user. What do I, as a USER, get to be able to do
with Wayland that I can't do now?
I know I can have different DPI on different monitors, which is a win I suppose for those that need it. (I don't have use for that). The other thing is tear-free rendering. I don't notice any tearing on my system.
On 2026-05-08, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 12:56:46 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has
been considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again
...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the
GUI should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
There was this system called “Microsoft Windows”. You may have heard
of it.
I've heard complaints about it...
Wasn't that intimately familiar with
its architecture but I suppose that makes sense, and probably explains
why the entire system would cack itself over GUI issues.
On 2026-05-08, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 13:04:06 -0000 (UTC)
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first
started using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead.
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think
the issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around,
but how disruptive the replacement is.
Yeah, that's the thing; XWindows was *always* a janky, inelegant
system and is certainly ripe for replacement - but it's irksome to
have the leading candidate run by developers with a fairly blinkered
view of GUI design and an overall autocratic attitude towards user
needs/feedback.
Spot on. You can't presume to know what end users want, or how they wil
use things. People will find their own idiosyncratic ways to solve
problems, to use technology. They'll invent workflows and use cases and programs you never thought of. And this is GOOD.
Well the question is, what does Wayland give me, that X11 does not? I
don't mean "clean code" or "less jank" or other stuff that matters not
one jot to me as a user. What do I, as a USER, get to be able to do
with Wayland that I can't do now?
Didn't see MyrLyn in the menus either ... will try to install it
with zypper.
It is optional, so you have to install it.
"yast" produces the TUI. yast2 produces the GUI. yast is a symlink to
yast2.
On 2026-05-08, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 12:56:46 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has been
considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back again ...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the GUI
should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
There was this system called “Microsoft Windows”. You may have heard of >> it.
I've heard complaints about it...
Wasn't that intimately familiar with its architecture but I suppose that makes sense, and probably explains why the entire system would cack
itself over GUI issues.
Indeed, MS themselves blamed the fact that the entire UI plus video card drivers was all "in the kernel" for much of the "blue screen of death"
events that windows was plagued with back in the pre-XP and XP days.
Spot on. You can't presume to know what end users want, or how they wil
use things. People will find their own idiosyncratic ways to solve
problems, to use technology. They'll invent workflows and use cases and programs you never thought of. And this is GOOD.
MS learns, albeit very slowly.
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
On 09/05/2026 04:31, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:Not any more. 4 parities are now in play with scottish welsh
The UK and some others have LOTS of parties,
which mostly seem aimed at keeping the main two in charge - places
to safely drain-off the 'nutter' votes.
'nationalist'
parties taking up considerable votes as well..
And the fascists and neo Nazi racists have entirely taken over the green party, and are busy calling everyone else fascists and racists, of
course...
Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-08, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 12:56:46 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has
been considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back
again ...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the
GUI should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
There was this system called “Microsoft Windows”. You may have heard of >>> it.
I've heard complaints about it...
Wasn't that intimately familiar with its architecture but I suppose that
makes sense, and probably explains why the entire system would cack
itself over GUI issues.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT#/media/File:Windows_2000_architecture.svg>
Lawrence isn't familiar with the architecture either.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 13:42:47 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Didn't see MyrLyn in the menus either ... will try to install it
with zypper.
It is optional, so you have to install it.
Looking at the history in /var/log/zypp myrlyn was installed on 2/9 along with everything else when I created the VM. iirc you are not running Leap
16.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 13:46:21 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
"yast" produces the TUI. yast2 produces the GUI. yast is a symlink to
yast2.
You are correct that yast is a symlink to yast2. 'sudo yast' and 'sudo
yast2' on Leap 16 produce the same TUI. I believe the problems with Ruby
3.4 that caused yast to be dropped from Leap 16 may be the problem.
That's the difference between a paid developer in a company and a FOSS developer. The paid developer is paid to do what the company pays him
for. And the company cares about the consumer's needs (ie: end users)
for obvious reasons.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
On 2026-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
It doesn't hurt that it also pushed Jeffrey Epstein off the front page.
Le 04-05-2026, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> a écrit :
Just make X great again.
As always, big mouth. Just, like it's easy. But you can't help because
it's too difficult for you.
What do you believe? That people abandoning X11 were stopping
maintaining it because they were obeying Red Hat? That people starting Wayland from scratch were doing it just to piss off you and your kind?
On 2026-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
It doesn't hurt that it also pushed Jeffrey Epstein off the front page.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 14:01:30 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Well the question is, what does Wayland give me, that X11 does not? I
don't mean "clean code" or "less jank" or other stuff that matters not
one jot to me as a user. What do I, as a USER, get to be able to do
with Wayland that I can't do now?
To invert the question if the boxes with Wayland work exactly the same as those with X11, why do I give a damn which is used? You can expand that to the systemd versus sysv init. Were I still developing Motif apps I might
care but the ones I worked on were 30 year old legacy code.
But boxes with Wayland are NOT working the same as they did underX.
Systemd gives a far greater attack surface than SysV.init.
On 5/9/26 13:46, Charlie Gibbs wrote:files
On 2026-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:We can assume that everything Trump does is to keep the Epstein
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
It doesn't hurt that it also pushed Jeffrey Epstein off the front page.
unpublicized. Release of the UAP files, the attack on Iran, all the
nonsense that come out of his mouth all to avoid EF.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 14:38:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 5/9/26 13:46, Charlie Gibbs wrote:files
On 2026-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:We can assume that everything Trump does is to keep the Epstein
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading >>>>> Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps >>>> more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes >>>> back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
It doesn't hurt that it also pushed Jeffrey Epstein off the front page.
unpublicized. Release of the UAP files, the attack on Iran, all the
nonsense that come out of his mouth all to avoid EF.
Considering the Biden administration sat on them too I can only conclude short eyes and hobnobbing with Mossad agents is a bipartisan activity.
On 5/9/26 16:12, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 14:38:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 5/9/26 13:46, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:We can assume that everything Trump does is to keep the Epstein
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like >>>>>> buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading >>>>>> Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps >>>>> more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes >>>>> back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
It doesn't hurt that it also pushed Jeffrey Epstein off the front page. >>>>
files unpublicized. Release of the UAP files, the attack on Iran,
all the nonsense that come out of his mouth all to avoid EF.
Considering the Biden administration sat on them too I can only conclude
short eyes and hobnobbing with Mossad agents is a bipartisan activity.
Well deviant behavior is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to downplay the Mossad contacts.
That's the difference between a paid developer in a company and a
FOSS developer. The paid developer is paid to do what the company
pays him for. And the company cares about the consumer's needs (ie:
end users) for obvious reasons.
Laicolasse:~ # rpm -qa | grep -i yast
On 2026-05-09 18:42, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 13:46:21 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
"yast" produces the TUI. yast2 produces the GUI. yast is a symlink to
yast2.
You are correct that yast is a symlink to yast2. 'sudo yast' and 'sudo
yast2' on Leap 16 produce the same TUI. I believe the problems with
Ruby 3.4 that caused yast to be dropped from Leap 16 may be the
problem.
No, I tried precisely on 16.0. yast2 produces the GUI for me. But I am
on X, no wayland. Using XFCE, or "ssh -X ..."
On 5/9/26 03:02, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Le 04-05-2026, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> a écrit :No but Wayland was started with assurances that it would be
Just make X great again.
As always, big mouth. Just, like it's easy. But you can't help because
it's too difficult for you.
What do you believe? That people abandoning X11 were stopping
maintaining it because they were obeying Red Hat? That people starting
Wayland from scratch were doing it just to piss off you and your kind?
complete replacement for X but it ain't. Still lacks functions that X supports.
If they fix Wayland more people will come.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
In article <M2NLR.1211145$Zve6.785275@fx18.iad>,
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
It doesn't hurt that it also pushed Jeffrey Epstein off the front page.
The best explanation is that he started the Iran war to distract from Epstein, but then that turned out so badly, that he sent his wife out to
make a speach about Epstein, in order to distract (back) from Iran.
We can assume that everything Trump does is to keep the Epstein
files unpublicized. Release of the UAP files, the attack on Iran,
all the nonsense that come out of his mouth all to avoid EF.
On 2026-05-09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Well deviant behaviour is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to
downplay the Mossad contacts.
Widespread? Heck, I suspect it's almost mandatory in those circles (including IOC, FIFA, etc....).
On 2026-05-09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 5/9/26 16:12, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 14:38:22 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 5/9/26 13:46, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:We can assume that everything Trump does is to keep the Epstein
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like >>>>>>> buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading >>>>>>> Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps >>>>>> more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes >>>>>> back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
It doesn't hurt that it also pushed Jeffrey Epstein off the front page. >>>>>
files unpublicized. Release of the UAP files, the attack on Iran,
all the nonsense that come out of his mouth all to avoid EF.
Considering the Biden administration sat on them too I can only conclude >>> short eyes and hobnobbing with Mossad agents is a bipartisan activity.
Well deviant behavior is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to
downplay the Mossad contacts.
Widespread? Heck, I suspect it's almost mandatory in those circles (including IOC, FIFA, etc....).
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:15:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/05/2026 04:31, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:Not any more. 4 parities are now in play with scottish welsh
The UK and some others have LOTS of parties,
which mostly seem aimed at keeping the main two in charge - places >>>> to safely drain-off the 'nutter' votes.
'nationalist'
parties taking up considerable votes as well..
And the fascists and neo Nazi racists have entirely taken over the green
party, and are busy calling everyone else fascists and racists, of
course...
What flavor of racism? Are they opposed to Mohammed becoming the most
popular boys' name in Scotland or the JNF-UK? It used to be a lot easier
to figure out what a fascist or racist was.
Not quite so obvious. The only consumer's need that the company
cares about is the need to give the company more money. Giving
the consumer what he wants is one way - but there are other,
more effective ways, ranging from shiny but useless glitz to
establishing a monopoly.
On 5/9/26 03:02, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Le 04-05-2026, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> a écrit :
Just make X great again.
As always, big mouth. Just, like it's easy. But you can't help
because it's too difficult for you.
What do you believe? That people abandoning X11 were stopping
maintaining it because they were obeying Red Hat? That people
starting Wayland from scratch were doing it just to piss off you
and your kind?
No but Wayland was started with assurances that it would be complete replacement for X but it ain't. Still lacks functions that X
supports.
If they fix Wayland more people will come.
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
Wasn't that intimately familiar with [Windows’] architecture but I
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the
GUI should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
suppose that makes sense, and probably explains why the entire
system would cack itself over GUI issues.
What do I, as a USER, get to be able to do with Wayland that I can't
do now?
Users have to be free to use, abuse and do wierd things, that is how innovation occurs.
On 09/05/2026 18:26, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:15:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/05/2026 04:31, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:Not any more. 4 parities are now in play with scottish welsh
The UK and some others have LOTS of parties,
which mostly seem aimed at keeping the main two in charge - places >>>>> to safely drain-off the 'nutter' votes.
'nationalist'
parties taking up considerable votes as well..
And the fascists and neo Nazi racists have entirely taken over the green >>> party, and are busy calling everyone else fascists and racists, of
course...
What flavor of racism? Are they opposed to Mohammed becoming the most
popular boys' name in Scotland or the JNF-UK? It used to be a lot easier
to figure out what a fascist or racist was.
Racists are people who hate other people based on race. In this case if
they are white, christian or Jewish.
Fascism is espousing a form of government in which no one opposes (your racism).
I've created some admittedly small FOSS programs, but public
nevertheless. I *always* consider the end user. Programs I write for
myself, I keep to myself.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 13:55:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Users have to be free to use, abuse and do wierd things, that is how
innovation occurs.
That requires active users who are suitably self-sufficient, able to understand the software they’re using, tweak it, patch it etc. And
maybe contribute their patches for others to share.
In other words, not the kind of users you get too often on these
online forums, who complain about conspiracies and about developers
making changes that *they* don’t particularly care for, and often
express outright rabid hate for certain software projects (like
Wayland and systemd). But cannot really offer any suitable
alternative.
In short, innovation comes from the doers, not from the armchair
critics.
Well the question is, what does Wayland give me, that X11 does not?
On 2026-05-09, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
That's the difference between a paid developer in a company and a FOSS
developer. The paid developer is paid to do what the company pays him
for. And the company cares about the consumer's needs (ie: end users)
for obvious reasons.
Not quite so obvious. The only consumer's need that the company
cares about is the need to give the company more money. Giving
the consumer what he wants is one way - but there are other,
more effective ways, ranging from shiny but useless glitz to
establishing a monopoly.
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-08, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 13:04:06 -0000 (UTC)
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first
started using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead.
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think
the issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around,
but how disruptive the replacement is.
Yeah, that's the thing; XWindows was *always* a janky, inelegant
system and is certainly ripe for replacement - but it's irksome to
have the leading candidate run by developers with a fairly blinkered
view of GUI design and an overall autocratic attitude towards user
needs/feedback.
Spot on. You can't presume to know what end users want, or how they wil
use things. People will find their own idiosyncratic ways to solve
problems, to use technology. They'll invent workflows and use cases and
programs you never thought of. And this is GOOD.
Usually it is good, but in the extreme it is not so good:
https://xkcd.com/1172/
The big Wayland problem has been they are from the same cut as the
systemd crowd (dictatorial know it alls) and so they threw out things
that many people actually used that were not "xkcd level unreasonable".
An application being able to request its windows be positioned at a
specific location on screen is not unreasonable, rather it is expected.
And then spent years arguing "no one needs that" before they finally
were beaten into admitting that it was a feature that many *did* need.
On 5/9/26 03:02, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
Le 04-05-2026, Leroy H <lh@somewhere.net> a écrit :
Just make X great again.
As always, big mouth. Just, like it's easy. But you can't help because
it's too difficult for you.
What do you believe? That people abandoning X11 were stopping
maintaining it because they were obeying Red Hat? That people starting
Wayland from scratch were doing it just to piss off you and your kind?
No but Wayland was started with assurances that it would be
complete replacement for X but it ain't. Still lacks functions that
X supports.
If they fix Wayland more people will come.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-08, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 12:56:46 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-07, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Thu, 7 May 2026 12:59:57 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
If there is one thing I'm sure of, is that eventually what has
been considered "osbsolete, old and outdated" will come back
again ...
One idea that is *not* coming back is the one that says that the
GUI should be inextricably tied into the OS kernel.
The rest of us are happy to leave that sort of thing in a museum.
Was that ever a widely used idea?
There was this system called “Microsoft Windows”. You may have heard of
it.
I've heard complaints about it...
Wasn't that intimately familiar with its architecture but I suppose that >>> makes sense, and probably explains why the entire system would cack
itself over GUI issues.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT#/media/File:Windows_2000_architecture.svg>
Lawrence isn't familiar with the architecture either.
Nor am I (familiar with the architecture of the Windows NT family, and
I’d regard it as a minor success if I stayed that way), but that diagram does show GDI and the window manager running in kernel mode. Although “inextricably” above doesn’t sound right since apparently they were user
mode components in NT 3.5 and I hear that a lot of the more modern stuff
runs in user mode at least since Vista.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 22:02:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Laicolasse:~ # rpm -qa | grep -i yast
It’s been a few years since I sat in front of an RPM-based system
(SuSE), but couldn’t this be written
rpm -qa name='*yast*'
?
<https://manpages.debian.org/rpm(8)>
On 10/05/2026 00:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Well deviant behaviour is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to
downplay the Mossad contacts.
Widespread? Heck, I suspect it's almost mandatory in those circles
(including IOC, FIFA, etc....).
Let's face it, when you have money, you don't need a moral compass.
On 09/05/2026 18:14, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:58:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
Yeah., We can blame America on the bloody Brits. they started it.
EVERYBODY has something on Trump. He doesn't care.
On Sat, 9 May 2026 22:02:34 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2026-05-09 18:42, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 13:46:21 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
"yast" produces the TUI. yast2 produces the GUI. yast is a symlink to
yast2.
You are correct that yast is a symlink to yast2. 'sudo yast' and 'sudo
yast2' on Leap 16 produce the same TUI. I believe the problems with
Ruby 3.4 that caused yast to be dropped from Leap 16 may be the
problem.
No, I tried precisely on 16.0. yast2 produces the GUI for me. But I am
on X, no wayland. Using XFCE, or "ssh -X ..."
I am on X11 in the VM. You have a lot more yasr2 stuff than I got with
'sudo zypper install yast2'. Myrlyn shows all the additional packages but I'm not interested enough to figure out what else zypper should have
pulled. It did get a lot of ruby 3.4 stuff.
On 2026-05-09, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-08, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 13:04:06 -0000 (UTC)
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first
started using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead.
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think
the issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around, >>>>> but how disruptive the replacement is.
Yeah, that's the thing; XWindows was *always* a janky, inelegant
system and is certainly ripe for replacement - but it's irksome to
have the leading candidate run by developers with a fairly blinkered
view of GUI design and an overall autocratic attitude towards user
needs/feedback.
Spot on. You can't presume to know what end users want, or how they wil >>> use things. People will find their own idiosyncratic ways to solve
problems, to use technology. They'll invent workflows and use cases and >>> programs you never thought of. And this is GOOD.
Usually it is good, but in the extreme it is not so good:
https://xkcd.com/1172/
The big Wayland problem has been they are from the same cut as the
systemd crowd (dictatorial know it alls) and so they threw out things
that many people actually used that were not "xkcd level unreasonable".
An application being able to request its windows be positioned at a
specific location on screen is not unreasonable, rather it is expected.
And then spent years arguing "no one needs that" before they finally
were beaten into admitting that it was a feature that many *did* need.
I don't quite get the point the xkcd is trying to make...
The whole "no one needs that" argument is terrible. It betrays to me a particular mindset, that is too overrepresented in Open Source. It to
me, correlated with a pariticular political style, but I won't go into
that. It shows a lack of imagination and a desire for control and
software that is created with that mindset, in particular, software like Wayland, will come out hobbled and the opposite if what the tinkerer/hobbyist/developer community needs.
On 5/9/26 18:40, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT#/media/File:Windows_2000_architecture.svg>
Lawrence isn't familiar with the architecture either.
Nor am I (familiar with the architecture of the Windows NT family,
and
I’d regard it as a minor success if I stayed that way), but that diagram >> does show GDI and the window manager running in kernel mode. Although
“inextricably” above doesn’t sound right since apparently they were user
mode components in NT 3.5 and I hear that a lot of the more modern stuff
runs in user mode at least since Vista.
There was a huge to-do about Win NT 4.0 allowing third party graphics
drivers direct access to the kernel. Back then the concern was more
about stability, blue screen of death, than it was about security.
AIUI, kernel access was granted in Win NT 4.0 because of poor games
graphics performance in Win NT 3.5. I guess they worked out how to
achieve good user mode performance in later releases.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/05/2026 18:14, rbowman wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading
Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps
more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes
back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
Yeah., We can blame America on the bloody Brits. they started it.
EVERYBODY has something on Trump. He doesn't care.
I enjoyed King Charles during his recent visit to the U.S. Trump tried
to take sole credit for winning WWII by proclaiming, "If it wasn't for
us, you'd be speaking German." The King responded, "If it wasn't for
us, you'd be speaking French."
Actually no, a "racist" in practice, is anyone who holds an opinion
of other ethnicities/races, or of any policy pertaining to
immigration and demographics, which is not endorsed by the
prevailing liberal worldview.
It is not whether there is hate involved, but whether the accuser
believes hate is involved.
Now, I have no idea about KiCad. I'm not using it. But it looks like
any time anyone want to tell Wayland is not ready, it looks like
it's the only program in the world that Wayland breaks. As I have no
need for it, I don't know if their reasons are good or not. What I
know is that in a broad picture: I hate when a program decides it
should change the space I told it to take. So, I'm far from sure I
would like it's expectation to be fulfilled.
I enjoyed King Charles during his recent visit to the U.S. Trump
tried to take sole credit for winning WWII by proclaiming, "If it
wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German." The King responded, "If it
wasn't for us, you'd be speaking French."
I've seen people do cool things just with MS Access, or VB, or
Excel, really stretching what can be done to solve a business
problem.
However the software itself does matter. If the software is designed
to be its own self-contained universe, to be used only the way the
designed intended, then it limits potential. Windows is terrible in
this regard
The whole "no one needs that" argument is terrible. It betrays to me
a particular mindset, that is too overrepresented in Open Source.
The laptop was just upgraded from 15.6 days ago, while the VM was
installed fresh. Thus the laptop inherited YaST.
On Sun, 10 May 2026 20:09:42 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The laptop was just upgraded from 15.6 days ago, while the VM was
installed fresh. Thus the laptop inherited YaST.
fwiw I did a bare metal install of Leap 16 KDE/Plasma and only got
Myrlyn.
It was an interesting Sunday. I had applied updates to the Endeavour box
and got kernel 7.0.5. I don't know if that was the only problem but the
box wouldn't boot. Screwed around with a live thumbdrive, chrood,
installed earlier kernel, did the dracut stuff. No joy.
By then I was pissed, didn't have too much to lose and decided to install Leap 16 since I had the offline iso. Copied it to the Ventory stick and
gave it several tries. Spoiler alert: OpenSUSE does not work with Ventoy.
Created a straight thumb drive on Ubuntu. No joy. Found I had to enable
UEFI. That got me further. Forgot configuration is a bit obscure with
SUSE. Screwed up and got a tty install, no DE.
Try again after checking the KDE box. The installation threw some errors about checksums and said if I continued it might not boot. I did and it didn't.
Try again with Xfce. Got a screen split between the laptop and it wouldn't let me log in.
Try again with KDE. It bitched about a qt5 library but installed and rebooted. It seems to be working although where stuff winds up on either
the laptop or the external monitor is a bit weird. The mouse cursor leads
me to believe it's treating them as one big screen.
It's systemd/x11 so I can piss both camps off.
Ummm ... has anyone noticed that installing most any Linux or the
basics for it has become much more difficult the past few years ???
On Sun, 10 May 2026 20:09:42 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The laptop was just upgraded from 15.6 days ago, while the VM was
installed fresh. Thus the laptop inherited YaST.
fwiw I did a bare metal install of Leap 16 KDE/Plasma and only got
Myrlyn.
It was an interesting Sunday. I had applied updates to the Endeavour box
and got kernel 7.0.5. I don't know if that was the only problem but the
box wouldn't boot. Screwed around with a live thumbdrive, chrood,
installed earlier kernel, did the dracut stuff. No joy.
By then I was pissed, didn't have too much to lose and decided to install Leap 16 since I had the offline iso. Copied it to the Ventory stick and
gave it several tries. Spoiler alert: OpenSUSE does not work with Ventoy.
Created a straight thumb drive on Ubuntu. No joy. Found I had to enable
UEFI. That got me further. Forgot configuration is a bit obscure with
SUSE. Screwed up and got a tty install, no DE.
Try again after checking the KDE box. The installation threw some errors about checksums and said if I continued it might not boot. I did and it didn't.
Try again with Xfce. Got a screen split between the laptop and it wouldn't let me log in.
Try again with KDE. It bitched about a qt5 library but installed and rebooted. It seems to be working although where stuff winds up on either
the laptop or the external monitor is a bit weird. The mouse cursor leads
me to believe it's treating them as one big screen.
It's systemd/x11 so I can piss both camps off.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 01:03:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Ummm ... has anyone noticed that installing most any Linux or the
basics for it has become much more difficult the past few years ???
Endeavour had been working well so I never looked under the hood. Grub?
Ain't no stinking grub. It's all dracut and systemd-boot. Searching
through the forums etc yielded a wealth of information about grub.
The real time waster was SUSE does not work with Ventoy. I finally found a blog where the guy mentioned that in passing.
Then there was UEFI. I'd
turned it off for EOS but apparently SUSE needs it.
As far as the checksum--
thing that may have been some transient error.
I suppose things have been going too smoothly for too long. The good part
is I didn't have enough project data on the laptop to worry about.
On 2026-05-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/05/2026 18:26, rbowman wrote:
On Sat, 9 May 2026 12:15:23 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 09/05/2026 04:31, rbowman wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 21:58:46 -0400, c186282 wrote:Not any more. 4 parities are now in play with scottish welsh
The UK and some others have LOTS of parties,
which mostly seem aimed at keeping the main two in charge - places >>>>>> to safely drain-off the 'nutter' votes.
'nationalist'
parties taking up considerable votes as well..
And the fascists and neo Nazi racists have entirely taken over the green >>>> party, and are busy calling everyone else fascists and racists, of
course...
What flavor of racism? Are they opposed to Mohammed becoming the most
popular boys' name in Scotland or the JNF-UK? It used to be a lot easier >>> to figure out what a fascist or racist was.
Racists are people who hate other people based on race. In this case if
they are white, christian or Jewish.
Fascism is espousing a form of government in which no one opposes (your
racism).
Actually no, a "racist" in practice, is anyone who holds an opinion of
other ethnicities/races, or of any policy pertaining to immigration and demographics, which is not endorsed by the prevailing liberal worldview.
It is not whether there is hate involved, but whether the accuser
believes hate is involved.
On 2026-05-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 10/05/2026 00:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Well deviant behaviour is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to
downplay the Mossad contacts.
Widespread? Heck, I suspect it's almost mandatory in those circles
(including IOC, FIFA, etc....).
Let's face it, when you have money, you don't need a moral compass.
Money _is_ the moral compass for those people.
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/05/2026 18:14, rbowman wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like
buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even invading >>>>> Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or, perhaps >>>> more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking mess goes >>>> back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
Yeah., We can blame America on the bloody Brits. they started it.
EVERYBODY has something on Trump. He doesn't care.
I enjoyed King Charles during his recent visit to the U.S. Trump tried
to take sole credit for winning WWII by proclaiming, "If it wasn't for
us, you'd be speaking German." The King responded, "If it wasn't for
us, you'd be speaking French."
Sole credit is a bit much but WWII would certainly have gone rather differently without US involvement, and personally I’m grateful for the American support.
Ummm ... has anyone noticed that installing most any Linux
or the basics for it has become much more difficult the past
few years ???
What's going on ?
On Sun, 10 May 2026 12:33:30 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Actually no, a "racist" in practice, is anyone who holds an opinion
of other ethnicities/races, or of any policy pertaining to
immigration and demographics, which is not endorsed by the
prevailing liberal worldview.
It is not whether there is hate involved, but whether the accuser
believes hate is involved.
If there is a value judgement involved, then that falls under the
category of “racism”.
By the way, “race” is not a scientific concept.
On Sun, 10 May 2026 13:10:59 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
The whole "no one needs that" argument is terrible. It betrays to me
a particular mindset, that is too overrepresented in Open Source.
Feel free to point out examples of such a mentality in any open-source project. Because in my experience, quite the opposite is true:
open-source developers tend to have almost an obsession with
completism (is there such a word?) -- including functionality because
it seems to fit naturally into the conception, not necessarily because
it will be a popular feature.
For example, GIMP has the scripting developer console function
built-in, not as some extra-cost addon. So you can open this and
directly experiment with image-manipulation commands interactively, in
either Python or Guile.
Imagine wanting to do something like this in Photoshop -- not a
chance. Not now or ever. Because providing such a function would
impinge on the market for extra-cost addons.
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-09, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-08, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 13:04:06 -0000 (UTC)
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first
started using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead. >>>>>>
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think
the issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around, >>>>>> but how disruptive the replacement is.
Yeah, that's the thing; XWindows was *always* a janky, inelegant
system and is certainly ripe for replacement - but it's irksome to
have the leading candidate run by developers with a fairly blinkered >>>>> view of GUI design and an overall autocratic attitude towards user
needs/feedback.
Spot on. You can't presume to know what end users want, or how they wil >>>> use things. People will find their own idiosyncratic ways to solve
problems, to use technology. They'll invent workflows and use cases and >>>> programs you never thought of. And this is GOOD.
Usually it is good, but in the extreme it is not so good:
https://xkcd.com/1172/
The big Wayland problem has been they are from the same cut as the
systemd crowd (dictatorial know it alls) and so they threw out things
that many people actually used that were not "xkcd level unreasonable". >>> An application being able to request its windows be positioned at a
specific location on screen is not unreasonable, rather it is expected. >>> And then spent years arguing "no one needs that" before they finally
were beaten into admitting that it was a feature that many *did* need.
I don't quite get the point the xkcd is trying to make...
It is an extreme version of the API acces statement of: "any
undocumented aspect of your API will eventually be discovered, and
relied upon, by someone, such that if you change this aspect, someone's workflow will be disrupted and complain".
The XKCD used a bug as the "undocumented aspect" but the same thing
happens with things as simple as: version 1 of API just happens to
return keys in ASCII sorted order, but the documentation is slient as
to any specific order for the returning keys. Some change is made to
the server behind the API, such that the happenstance of ASCII sorted
order for keys in the API return bundle no longer apples, and keys now return in an arbitrary order (not 'random' per. se., but no longer
"ASCII sorted" either). But, the fact that, pre bug-fix, the API
happened to always return in ASCII sorted order *will* have been relied
upon by someone (or more than one 'someone'), despite the actual documentation being silent, such that post bug fix, someone(s) will
complain that the keys are no longer returning in ASCII sorted order
and their code is now badly broken.
The whole "no one needs that" argument is terrible. It betrays to me a
particular mindset, that is too overrepresented in Open Source. It to
me, correlated with a pariticular political style, but I won't go into
that. It shows a lack of imagination and a desire for control and
software that is created with that mindset, in particular, software like
Wayland, will come out hobbled and the opposite if what the
tinkerer/hobbyist/developer community needs.
It's a "dictatorial" mindset: you will use what I give you, in the
manner I specify, and be happy with it, or else you can go f**k
yourself. The systemd/wayland/gnome crowd has become a magnet for this personality type.
On 2026-05-10, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2026 12:33:30 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Actually no, a "racist" in practice, is anyone who holds an opinion
of other ethnicities/races, or of any policy pertaining to
immigration and demographics, which is not endorsed by the
prevailing liberal worldview.
It is not whether there is hate involved, but whether the accuser
believes hate is involved.
If there is a value judgement involved, then that falls under the
category of “racism”.
By the way, “race” is not a scientific concept.
The argument that is it not scientific comes from Lewontin, which was
then laundered into "scientist say".
To the layperson, this seems like he found an argument, but it was just
a political position. Science does not prove that race exists or does
not exist. All of the levels of taxonomy, whether "species" or "class"
or "genus" or "order" are not proven to exist or not. They are categorisations that are useful for grouping, categorisations which have predictive and explanatory power.
Simply put, if there is a categorsation which is explanatory power, that
is to say, using these terms or groupings can actually describe common features, lineage and ancestry, then that categorisation is therefore
useful.
Lewontin just did some stupid argument to "prove" it doens't exist, when biology doesn't work that way.
To prove that "race desn't exist", you would need to demonstrate that
the categorisations are meaningless, but he couldn't do that. So he
used mixed peoples to come up with some math that proves. Well nothing.
The fact that humans still use racial terms, and do so without confusion
kind of has to be explained...
On Sun, 10 May 2026 13:01:43 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
I've seen people do cool things just with MS Access, or VB, or
Excel, really stretching what can be done to solve a business
problem.
However the software itself does matter. If the software is designed
to be its own self-contained universe, to be used only the way the
designed intended, then it limits potential. Windows is terrible in
this regard
And now you get into whether the software base on which the user is
building their ingenious solutions is facilitating that ingenuity, or hindering it.
As you said, Windows is terrible, as indeed is most proprietary
software (I would include the Microsoft products you mentioned above).
As you try pushing its boundaries, sooner or later you hit limits
which are there not because of lack of imagination on the part of the developers, but because it would be counter to their business model to
give you more functionality in that direction without making you pay
more money.
Open-source software, pretty much by definition, cannot suffer from
this problem. If a piece of said software had such a problem, somebody
would see it as a bug and publish a fix.
Default install on Leap 16 is now a minimal text mode. You have to
choose a desktop.
On 10/05/2026 18:40, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:An interesting perspective. I will ponder that. Very Dickensian.
On 10/05/2026 00:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Well deviant behaviour is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to
downplay the Mossad contacts.
Widespread? Heck, I suspect it's almost mandatory in those circles
(including IOC, FIFA, etc....).
Let's face it, when you have money, you don't need a moral compass.
Money _is_ the moral compass for those people.
'Poverty is a crime punishable by deportation'.
And Lo! There was Australia..
On 10/05/2026 22:54, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:Less support than self interest.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/05/2026 18:14, rbowman wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like >>>>>> buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even
invading Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans
dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or,
perhaps more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking >>>>> mess goes back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
Yeah., We can blame America on the bloody Brits. they started it.
EVERYBODY has something on Trump. He doesn't care.
I enjoyed King Charles during his recent visit to the U.S. Trump
tried to take sole credit for winning WWII by proclaiming, "If it
wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German." The King responded, "If it
wasn't for us, you'd be speaking French."
Sole credit is a bit much but WWII would certainly have gone rather
differently without US involvement, and personally I’m grateful for the
American support.
The fact that humans still use racial terms, and do so without confusion
kind of has to be explained...
On Mon, 11 May 2026 01:03:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
Ummm ... has anyone noticed that installing most any Linux or the
basics for it has become much more difficult the past few years ???
Endeavour had been working well so I never looked under the hood. Grub?
Ain't no stinking grub. It's all dracut and systemd-boot. Searching
through the forums etc yielded a wealth of information about grub.
The real time waster was SUSE does not work with Ventoy. I finally found a blog where the guy mentioned that in passing. Then there was UEFI. I'd
turned it off for EOS but apparently SUSE needs it. As far as the checksum thing that may have been some transient error.
I suppose things have been going too smoothly for too long. The good part
is I didn't have enough project data on the laptop to worry about.
On 11/05/2026 06:03, c186282 wrote:
Ummm ... has anyone noticed that installing most any Linux
or the basics for it has become much more difficult the past few
years ???
What's going on ?
They aren't installing Linux Mint?
On Mon, 11 May 2026 12:11:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/05/2026 18:40, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:An interesting perspective. I will ponder that. Very Dickensian.
On 10/05/2026 00:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Well deviant behaviour is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to
downplay the Mossad contacts.
Widespread? Heck, I suspect it's almost mandatory in those circles
(including IOC, FIFA, etc....).
Let's face it, when you have money, you don't need a moral compass.
Money _is_ the moral compass for those people.
'Poverty is a crime punishable by deportation'.
And Lo! There was Australia..
While the COE isn't Calvinist I think the Presbyterians and other Reformed dissenters left their mark on Britain and the US. You're either damned to hell or not and there isn't much you can do about it. If you're rich
you're obviously favored by God. If you're poor you're going to hell. Too bad, so sad, but why waste resources on the hell bound?
On Mon, 11 May 2026 12:12:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/05/2026 22:54, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:Less support than self interest.
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 09/05/2026 18:14, rbowman wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
He's started a war against Iran in order to Be Important, just like >>>>>>> buddy Putin.
But in the end its just another pile of steaming turds. Even
invading Iran wont fix the problem, just get a lot of Americans
dead.
Even worse he started it to make his buddy Netanyahu happy or,
perhaps more accurately, Miriam Adelson. Of course the whole fucking >>>>>> mess goes back to the Brits making Chaim Weizmann happy.
Yeah., We can blame America on the bloody Brits. they started it.
EVERYBODY has something on Trump. He doesn't care.
I enjoyed King Charles during his recent visit to the U.S. Trump
tried to take sole credit for winning WWII by proclaiming, "If it
wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German." The King responded, "If it
wasn't for us, you'd be speaking French."
Sole credit is a bit much but WWII would certainly have gone rather
differently without US involvement, and personally I’m grateful for the >>> American support.
War is good for bidness. A lot of unpleasantness could have been avoided
had Wilson remained neutral and let the Europeans sort their problems out
in WWI.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 13:12:17 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:As every advert warning us about prostate cancer repeats.
The fact that humans still use racial terms, and do so without confusion
kind of has to be explained...
The recent furor over redistricting points out "Lewontin's fallacy". You can't simultaneously create districts based on the skin color of the residents and say that the skin color doesn't matter. Call it 'race' or whatever you want there are genetic and behavioral differences when
examining populations.
<https://get.opensuse.org/leap/16.0/> -> Download -> How to create a
bootable USB stick on Linux.
<https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Live_USB_stick> <Create_a_Live_USB_stick_using_Windows> <https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Create_a_Live_USB_stick_using_macOS>
There you have the supported methods for creating the USB stick.
Then there was UEFI. I'd turned it off for EOS but apparently SUSE
needs it.
That would be new. Leap 15.x did support BIOS machines.
On 10/05/2026 18:40, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:An interesting perspective. I will ponder that. Very Dickensian.
On 10/05/2026 00:33, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
On 2026-05-09, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
Well deviant behaviour is widespread and likely the FBI wanted to
downplay the Mossad contacts.
Widespread? Heck, I suspect it's almost mandatory in those circles
(including IOC, FIFA, etc....).
Let's face it, when you have money, you don't need a moral compass.
Money _is_ the moral compass for those people.
'Poverty is a crime punishable by deportation'.
And Lo! There was Australia..
On 2026-05-10, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2026 12:33:30 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Actually no, a "racist" in practice, is anyone who holds an opinion
of other ethnicities/races, or of any policy pertaining to
immigration and demographics, which is not endorsed by the
prevailing liberal worldview.
It is not whether there is hate involved, but whether the accuser
believes hate is involved.
If there is a value judgement involved, then that falls under the
category of “racism”.
By the way, “race” is not a scientific concept.
The argument that is it not scientific comes from Lewontin, which was
then laundered into "scientist say".
To the layperson, this seems like he found an argument, but it was just
a political position. Science does not prove that race exists or does
not exist. All of the levels of taxonomy, whether "species" or "class"
or "genus" or "order" are not proven to exist or not. They are categorisations that are useful for grouping, categorisations which have predictive and explanatory power.
Simply put, if there is a categorsation which is explanatory power, that
is to say, using these terms or groupings can actually describe common features, lineage and ancestry, then that categorisation is therefore
useful.
Lewontin just did some stupid argument to "prove" it doens't exist, when biology doesn't work that way.
To prove that "race desn't exist", you would need to demonstrate that
the categorisations are meaningless, but he couldn't do that. So he
used mixed peoples to come up with some math that proves. Well nothing.
The fact that humans still use racial terms, and do so without confusion
kind of has to be explained...
Then USA depends on a lot of the rest of the planet for various things like coffee, chocolate, champaign and Scotch Whiskey. But
we depend on sales to those other places of a lot of our products like machine tools, wheat and soy.
GNOME to me is a good example of a system which seem to restrict users
more and more. GNOME 2 and 3 seemed to have less configurability than
their predecessor. Its been a while since I've used it, but I recall
having to install an extension, to make configuration changes that with
GNOME 1 I could do as is. I was a GNOME user and stopped specifically
for this reason.
The idea of race is the confusion. Race was invented by the European
settlers of the Americas when they encountered people of markedly different skin color.
Before that Europeans did not describe themselves as belongingNot white specifically.
to a White Race.
But once they got to the New World they had people with
out the same religion to be reduced to slavery despite the efforts of Popes and Kings to point out that these people of color where as human as themselves.
We fought the Revolutionary War in North America because we
wanted to take over the lands of the Native American Tribes therein
resident who subsisted by farming and hunting and the Government of the
UK wanted rapprochment with those NA Tribes for the sake of trading
and eventual incorporation into the Empire. So did the French and the Spanish despite the words of Kings and Pope wanted to enslave the
people in the territories that they occupied.
Slavery was the basis of Wealth in the North American colonies
of the UK so despite the proclamation in our Declaration of Independence
of universal equality, the Constitution maintained slavery for 60+ years until parts of the new nation murdered each other to free the African descended slaves of the Southern States.
On 2026-05-10, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-09, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-05-08, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 8 May 2026 13:04:06 -0000 (UTC)
Borax Man <boraxman@geidiprime.invalid> wrote:
I kind of agree. I actually didn't like it much when I first
started using it, seemed... inefficient, some unecessary overhead. >>>>>>>
However, you work its peculuarities into your workflow. I think >>>>>>> the issue for me is not so much whether X11 is specifically around, >>>>>>> but how disruptive the replacement is.
Yeah, that's the thing; XWindows was *always* a janky, inelegant
system and is certainly ripe for replacement - but it's irksome to >>>>>> have the leading candidate run by developers with a fairly blinkered >>>>>> view of GUI design and an overall autocratic attitude towards user >>>>>> needs/feedback.
Spot on. You can't presume to know what end users want, or how they wil >>>>> use things. People will find their own idiosyncratic ways to solve
problems, to use technology. They'll invent workflows and use cases and >>>>> programs you never thought of. And this is GOOD.
Usually it is good, but in the extreme it is not so good:
https://xkcd.com/1172/
The big Wayland problem has been they are from the same cut as the
systemd crowd (dictatorial know it alls) and so they threw out things >>>> that many people actually used that were not "xkcd level unreasonable". >>>> An application being able to request its windows be positioned at a
specific location on screen is not unreasonable, rather it is expected. >>>> And then spent years arguing "no one needs that" before they finally
were beaten into admitting that it was a feature that many *did* need. >>>>
I don't quite get the point the xkcd is trying to make...
It is an extreme version of the API acces statement of: "any
undocumented aspect of your API will eventually be discovered, and
relied upon, by someone, such that if you change this aspect, someone's
workflow will be disrupted and complain".
The XKCD used a bug as the "undocumented aspect" but the same thing
happens with things as simple as: version 1 of API just happens to
return keys in ASCII sorted order, but the documentation is slient as
to any specific order for the returning keys. Some change is made to
the server behind the API, such that the happenstance of ASCII sorted
order for keys in the API return bundle no longer apples, and keys now
return in an arbitrary order (not 'random' per. se., but no longer
"ASCII sorted" either). But, the fact that, pre bug-fix, the API
happened to always return in ASCII sorted order *will* have been relied
upon by someone (or more than one 'someone'), despite the actual
documentation being silent, such that post bug fix, someone(s) will
complain that the keys are no longer returning in ASCII sorted order
and their code is now badly broken.
I get that, but if its undocumented its not an intentional feature, so
yes, it makes sense in that context. I was more referring to features
which are documented, but which may seem to not be useful or required
(such as, placing a new window at a specific coordinate)
... They'll invent workflows and use cases and programs you never
thought of.
The whole "no one needs that" argument is terrible. It betrays to me a
particular mindset, that is too overrepresented in Open Source. It to
me, correlated with a pariticular political style, but I won't go into
that. It shows a lack of imagination and a desire for control and
software that is created with that mindset, in particular, software like >>> Wayland, will come out hobbled and the opposite if what the
tinkerer/hobbyist/developer community needs.
It's a "dictatorial" mindset: you will use what I give you, in the
manner I specify, and be happy with it, or else you can go f**k
yourself. The systemd/wayland/gnome crowd has become a magnet for this
personality type.
When I used an Apple MacBook for work, I was shoked at how little I
could change about the GUI. There were only two shades of highlight,
blue or grey. Why? Because of some vision. Apple wanted me to
experince the computer the way THEY invisaged. No thanks...
This may be OK for people who have no imagination whatsover, and no
desire to imagine anythig working different to how it is presented to
that, but thats not me.
On 5/10/26 23:05, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2026 01:03:33 -0400, c186282 wrote:
The real time waster was SUSE does not work with Ventoy. I finally
found a
blog where the guy mentioned that in passing. Then there was UEFI. I'd
turned it off for EOS but apparently SUSE needs it. As far as the
checksum
thing that may have been some transient error.
Has SUSE paid off Microsoft for a security code?
We don't use that but have UEFI turn off the Secure Boot and use GPartEd on the installation media to do the partitioning. We also have
a member who produces a version with access to the Debian repositories.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 11:20:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Default install on Leap 16 is now a minimal text mode. You have to
choose a desktop.
I thought I had. I'm not fond of the installer. Most distros I've worked
with go through a series of screens to set the localization, provide any necessary wifi credentials, create the user account, select a DE, etc. Arguably all that stuff is there in the menus on the left of the installer screen.
Hey, I'm old and semi-senile and need a little hand holding.
I think I've gotten it beaten into shape. It's on a laptop but I use an external monitor via a KVM switch. Some dialogs displayed on the laptop, others on the external. I thought VS Codium was broken because it seem to freeze then I tried to open a file. The laptop is not in my peripheral
vision so it took a while to notice the file selection dialog was
displayed on the laptop.
That sounds like the systemd/wayland/gnome crowd is copying Apple and
Jory Ive there. As I don't have/use a Mac, I'm unaware of just how "protective" the walled garden of a Mac really is.
On 11/05/2026 18:46, Rich wrote:
That sounds like the systemd/wayland/gnome crowd is copying Apple and
Jory Ive there. As I don't have/use a Mac, I'm unaware of just how
"protective" the walled garden of a Mac really is.
A Mac makes it extremely easy to 'do stuff' that they have thought of
and implemented and almost impossible to 'do stuff' they haven't.
At least with Linux, you generally can...
On Mon, 11 May 2026 11:35:55 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<https://get.opensuse.org/leap/16.0/> -> Download -> How to create a
bootable USB stick on Linux.
<https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Live_USB_stick>
<Create_a_Live_USB_stick_using_Windows>
<https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Create_a_Live_USB_stick_using_macOS>
There you have the supported methods for creating the USB stick.
Then there was UEFI. I'd turned it off for EOS but apparently SUSE
needs it.
That would be new. Leap 15.x did support BIOS machines.
Those instructions are similar to most distros but other distros are
usable with Ventoy. Yeah, follow the official instructions and all that
but a big DON'T USE VENTOY would be nice. It seems to work until it gets
to initramfs, where it hangs until it dies an you go back the the Lenovo BIOS. Or UEFI, I guess, to be accurate.
I never liked GNOME and switched to SuSE early on since it was KDE.
On 2026-05-10, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
By the way, “race” is not a scientific concept.
The argument that is it not scientific comes from Lewontin ...
On 2026-05-10, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
For example, GIMP has the scripting developer console function
built-in, not as some extra-cost addon. So you can open this and
directly experiment with image-manipulation commands interactively,
in either Python or Guile.
Imagine wanting to do something like this in Photoshop -- not a
chance. Not now or ever. Because providing such a function would
impinge on the market for extra-cost addons.
Yes, but GIMP is well over 25 years old, right?
GNOME to me is a good example of a system which seem to restrict
users more and more.
On 5/11/26 06:12, Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-10, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2026 12:33:30 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Actually no, a "racist" in practice, is anyone who holds an opinion
of other ethnicities/races, or of any policy pertaining to
immigration and demographics, which is not endorsed by the
prevailing liberal worldview.
It is not whether there is hate involved, but whether the accuser
believes hate is involved.
If there is a value judgement involved, then that falls under the
category of “racism”.
By the way, “race” is not a scientific concept.
The argument that is it not scientific comes from Lewontin, which was
then laundered into "scientist say".
To the layperson, this seems like he found an argument, but it was just
a political position. Science does not prove that race exists or does
not exist. All of the levels of taxonomy, whether "species" or "class"
or "genus" or "order" are not proven to exist or not. They are
categorisations that are useful for grouping, categorisations which have
predictive and explanatory power.
Simply put, if there is a categorsation which is explanatory power, that
is to say, using these terms or groupings can actually describe common
features, lineage and ancestry, then that categorisation is therefore
useful.
Lewontin just did some stupid argument to "prove" it doens't exist, when
biology doesn't work that way.
To prove that "race desn't exist", you would need to demonstrate that
the categorisations are meaningless, but he couldn't do that. So he
used mixed peoples to come up with some math that proves. Well nothing.
The fact that humans still use racial terms, and do so without confusion
kind of has to be explained...
The idea of race is the confusion. Race was invented by the European
settlers of the Americas when
I am not found of the current installer on Leap 16.0. Many people are
not happy and don't understand why the old one was ditched. It worked,
and we knew its caveats.
And the thing about not having a default desktop has caught up many
people unawares, even experienced openSUSE users. It is not you.
On 11/05/2026 17:32, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Then USA depends on a lot of the rest of the planet for various >> things like coffee, chocolate, champaign and Scotch Whiskey. But
we depend on sales to those other places of a lot of our products like
machine tools, wheat and soy.
Champagne. There is no such thing as Scotch Whiskey. Only Irish Whiskey. It's sScotch Whisky.
Most Machine tools are European. We don't buy much from the USA at all.
Well obviously we buy IT kit but tits all made in China, only the badge
is American...
Cornflakes perhaps. But that's more likely to come from Canada.
Energy, ores and overwhelmingly 'services' . i kit and big industrial tech.
But Mr Trump doesn't want to sell us kit any more, so I guess that will change now
Has SUSE paid off Microsoft for a security code?
We don't use that but have UEFI turn off the Secure Boot and use GPartEd on the installation media to do the partitioning. We also have
a member who produces a version with access to the Debian repositories.
not mean much to a pro like you Bowman, but the Forum reminds me of the
old BBS scene.
Sadly, your sentence describes 98.23% (made up percentage) of plainusers
(those to which the computer is nothing more than a tool to do something else, even if that something else is simply "doomscroll facebook").They
make no changes, in very large part because they are simply unaware itis
even possible to make any customizations. Which then gives thethose
dictatorial mindset developers (and companies) reign to dictate, as
98.23% simply won't complain about anything to provide pushback on
changes.
Think of GNOME as being designed to make refugees from Windows and macOS
feel at home. Back there they would complain about how every new version
of the systems would make unwanted changes, and break familiar
behaviours,
on a basically take-it-or-leave-it basis.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
I never liked GNOME and switched to SuSE early on since it was KDE.
I don't think there ever was a time where you had to switch
distributions to get a different desktop.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 13:30:58 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
GNOME to me is a good example of a system which seem to restrict users
more and more. GNOME 2 and 3 seemed to have less configurability than
their predecessor. Its been a while since I've used it, but I recall
having to install an extension, to make configuration changes that with
GNOME 1 I could do as is. I was a GNOME user and stopped specifically
for this reason.
I never liked GNOME and switched to SuSE early on since it was KDE. Ubuntu tweaks it enough that there is a taskbar, panel, or whatever you want to
call it that I can live with since I pin the stuff I use to it and rarely have to deal with the dashboard.
Racism per se is attaching *unwarranted* characteristics to it. It's not racist to say 'all black people have higher skin melanin'
It is racist to say 'all black people smell, and are stupid'.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 17:46:22 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
Sadly, your sentence describes 98.23% (made up percentage) of plainusers
(those to which the computer is nothing more than a tool to do somethingThey
else, even if that something else is simply "doomscroll facebook").
make no changes, in very large part because they are simply unaware itis
even possible to make any customizations. Which then gives thethose
dictatorial mindset developers (and companies) reign to dictate, as
98.23% simply won't complain about anything to provide pushback on
changes.
I probably fall into that camp. I certainly am not Torvalds but I agree
with him that system administration isn't something I really enjoy; I have other fish to fry and want the system to work with minimal maintenance.
What a strange Americo-centric view of the world and history
And the thing about not having a default desktop has caught up many
people unawares, even experienced openSUSE users. It is not you.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 23:01:34 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
Think of GNOME as being designed to make refugees from Windows and macOS
feel at home. Back there they would complain about how every new version
of the systems would make unwanted changes, and break familiar
behaviours,
on a basically take-it-or-leave-it basis.
I'm not a refugee but GNOME never made me feel at home. Luckily I skipped Vista and 8 and went directly to 10 from 7. We did have a Windows Server version that had the smartphone dash that I avoided.
War is good for bidness. A lot of unpleasantness could have beenWhich unpleasantness? Europe and the American continents are
avoided had Wilson remained neutral and let the Europeans sort their
problems out in WWI.
on the same planet. AH had global ambitions and would have turned o n
his allies if he had won just as he turned on Joe Stalin once he thought
he had established "Festung Europa".
Champagne. There is no such thing as Scotch Whiskey. Only Irish Whiskey.
It's Scotch Whisky.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 13:12:17 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
On 2026-05-10, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
By the way, “race” is not a scientific concept.
The argument that is it not scientific comes from Lewontin ...
Ask any geneticist. Where is a gene in the human DNA for “white” or “black”? Or “yellow” or “brown” or “red”, for that matter? There isn’t
one. Look at any population that you might want to group under a common “race”, and you will find more variability between individuals in that one population than you will between the norms you are using to define
any distinction between “races”.
Hmm, talk to Elon, maybe MARS can become the next big penal colony ?
On Mon, 11 May 2026 17:37:51 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Racism per se is attaching *unwarranted* characteristics to it. It's not
racist to say 'all black people have higher skin melanin'
It is racist to say 'all black people smell, and are stupid'.
I have noticed it is not racist to say 'all black people are marvelous athletes' or some similar stereotype. Saying the spearchuckers evolved
speed through selection by hungry lions probably is.
The prostate cancer is one example. Ashkenazim tend to have unique health issues too. Tiptoeing around 'race', 'ethnicity', or whatever you want to call it is doing nobody any favors.
Watching the ads netflix and amazon shove into the stream has led me to conclude black people seem to have a lot of health issues that can be
cured by Pfizer if the side effects up to and including death don't get
you first. Or maybe some ethnicities are overrepresented ?
On Mon, 11 May 2026 18:09:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What a strange Americo-centric view of the world and history
Bobbie is channeling Howard Zinn. If the sagas are too be believed when
the Norse first encountered the Skraelings they killed them but that's SOP for the Norse.
Calvinist? Do they accept the words of the Teacher, "What you do
for the least of these you do for Me."
On Mon, 11 May 2026 18:09:49 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
What a strange Americo-centric view of the world and history
Bobbie is channeling Howard Zinn. If the sagas are too be believed when
the Norse first encountered the Skraelings they killed them but that's SOP for the Norse.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 09:22:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:Well good on Martin but I caught a bit of Fulton J. Sheen
Calvinist? Do they accept the words of the Teacher, "What you do
for the least of these you do for Me."
Not that I've noticed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Points_of_Calvinism
Start with total depravity and go downhill from there.
I was a Cub Scout and when they said 'go to church with your family' I
made the fatal mistake of asking 'What is church?' I was immediately
signed up for 'religious instruction'. There were two churches in town Catholic and Dutch Reformed. My father was Catholic, albeit excommunicated for marrying my mother, so I got that flavor. My mother, forestalling my whining 'Why do I have to go to church? You don't go!', went the the
Reformed church although she never took it seriously.
Theoretically Reformed don't smoke, drink, play cards, gamble, or have
much fun. They raise money with bake sales. The Catholic church put on a horse show that was well respected on the horse show circuit, held Las
Vegas nights, and engaged in other sinful behavior. The parish had a
stable and a race horse since the races at Saratoga (NY) were a big deal.
The Catholic Church had a 'poor box' to fund the Society of Saint Vincent
de Paul that existed to serve the poor. Dorothy Day's Catholic Worker Movement took it even further.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entertaining_Angels:_The_Dorothy_Day_Story
That's an interesting movie about Day. For trivia Martin Sheen took his
stage name in honor of Fulton J. Sheen, possibly the first TV evangelist.
I'm not saying individual Calvinists don't aid the poor but it really
isn't in the theology. The poor aren't the elect so why bother? Good works don't raise your heavenly social score, so why bother?
On Mon, 11 May 2026 09:32:40 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
War is good for bidness. A lot of unpleasantness could have beenWhich unpleasantness? Europe and the American continents are
avoided had Wilson remained neutral and let the Europeans sort their
problems out in WWI.
on the same planet. AH had global ambitions and would have turned o n
his allies if he had won just as he turned on Joe Stalin once he thought
he had established "Festung Europa".
Rewind a bit. WWI had many roots but part of it was Britain trying to
defuse the Germans that had discovered the industrial revolution with a passion. The French were still butt hurt over the war they started and
lost. Had the US not sent materiel and eventually men the war might have fizzled out with Britain losing a bit of the hegemony that they ultimately lost completely.
Then the idealist fool, Wilson, went to Versailles and they played him
like a fiddle. There have been recent attempts to blame it on a bad case
of flu. Even Keynes couldn't stomach the treaty Clemenceau and George
pushed through. Even worse Germany was blockaded for six months after the treaty was signed leading to wide spread starvation. France frosted the
cake by having its colonial (colored) troops occupy the Ruhr.
Weimar was a shit pit with out of control inflation and general misery
with a decadent cherry on top. The KPD was marching in the streets and everyone was aware of what kind, gentle, people they were. q.v. Red
Terror. The original Antifa was one of their projects.
Enter Corporal Hitler. Stalin was no fool. I presume someone in the CP had read 'Mein Kampf' and knew how Hitler viewed communists. Stalin was buying time. Read Mila Pavlichenko's autobiography. She eventually was sent to
the US and became Eleanor Roosevelt's BFF and went on tour begging aid.
The hag's worthless husband complied. Him and Joe became great buddies
too.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 09:22:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
Calvinist? Do they accept the words of the Teacher, "What you do
for the least of these you do for Me."
Not that I've noticed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Points_of_Calvinism
Start with total depravity and go downhill from there.
I was a Cub Scout and when they said 'go to church with your family' I
made the fatal mistake of asking 'What is church?' I was immediately
signed up for 'religious instruction'. There were two churches in town Catholic and Dutch Reformed. My father was Catholic, albeit excommunicated for marrying my mother, so I got that flavor. My mother, forestalling my whining 'Why do I have to go to church? You don't go!', went the the
Reformed church although she never took it seriously.
On 5/11/26 20:51, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2026 09:22:45 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:Well good on Martin but I caught a bit of Fulton J. Sheen
Calvinist? Do they accept the words of the Teacher, "What you do >>> for the least of these you do for Me."
Not that I've noticed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Points_of_Calvinism
Start with total depravity and go downhill from there.
I was a Cub Scout and when they said 'go to church with your family' I
made the fatal mistake of asking 'What is church?' I was immediately
signed up for 'religious instruction'. There were two churches in town
Catholic and Dutch Reformed. My father was Catholic, albeit
excommunicated
for marrying my mother, so I got that flavor. My mother, forestalling my
whining 'Why do I have to go to church? You don't go!', went the the
Reformed church although she never took it seriously.
Theoretically Reformed don't smoke, drink, play cards, gamble, or have
much fun. They raise money with bake sales. The Catholic church put on a
horse show that was well respected on the horse show circuit, held Las
Vegas nights, and engaged in other sinful behavior. The parish had a
stable and a race horse since the races at Saratoga (NY) were a big deal.
The Catholic Church had a 'poor box' to fund the Society of Saint Vincent
de Paul that existed to serve the poor. Dorothy Day's Catholic Worker
Movement took it even further.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entertaining_Angels:_The_Dorothy_Day_Story
That's an interesting movie about Day. For trivia Martin Sheen took his
stage name in honor of Fulton J. Sheen, possibly the first TV evangelist.
I'm not saying individual Calvinists don't aid the poor but it really
isn't in the theology. The poor aren't the elect so why bother? Good
works
don't raise your heavenly social score, so why bother?
and he was not Evangelical in the Protestant sense. He was
trying it seems to keep the wandering flock informed and in line.
I went to a Parochial RC High School in the 1950s and we
had a fire-breathing priest come by who preached against
Eddy Cantor of all things and I thought he was crazy, as Cantor
and Hope on radio were our favorite shows along with Fibber
McGee and Molly, Duffy's Tavern, Mr.Keen Tracer of Lost Persons,
the Shadow, Mr. District Attorney, Mr. First Nighter who
pretended to enjoy plays on the radio, Kay Kayser and his
College of Musical Knowledge, Jack Benny, Allan's Alley,
George Burns and Grace Allen, Phil Harris, Phil Mctalney
with Evelyn and her Magic Violin, and the Whistler.
I went to 3 different Sunday Schools of various
sects of evangelical fundamentalism before I went to
that parochial HS.
Those exposures were more deadly than
Science to any remmant of Faith eventually.
On 5/11/26 20:16, rbowman wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2026 09:32:40 -0700, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
War is good for bidness. A lot of unpleasantness could have beenWhich unpleasantness? Europe and the American continents are
avoided had Wilson remained neutral and let the Europeans sort their
problems out in WWI.
on the same planet. AH had global ambitions and would have turned o n
his allies if he had won just as he turned on Joe Stalin once he thought >>> he had established "Festung Europa".
Rewind a bit. WWI had many roots but part of it was Britain trying to
defuse the Germans that had discovered the industrial revolution with a
passion. The French were still butt hurt over the war they started and
lost. Had the US not sent materiel and eventually men the war might have
fizzled out with Britain losing a bit of the hegemony that they
ultimately
lost completely.
Then the idealist fool, Wilson, went to Versailles and they played him
like a fiddle. There have been recent attempts to blame it on a bad case
of flu. Even Keynes couldn't stomach the treaty Clemenceau and George
pushed through. Even worse Germany was blockaded for six months after the
treaty was signed leading to wide spread starvation. France frosted the
cake by having its colonial (colored) troops occupy the Ruhr.
Weimar was a shit pit with out of control inflation and general misery
with a decadent cherry on top. The KPD was marching in the streets and
everyone was aware of what kind, gentle, people they were. q.v. Red
Terror. The original Antifa was one of their projects.
Enter Corporal Hitler. Stalin was no fool. I presume someone in the CP
had
read 'Mein Kampf' and knew how Hitler viewed communists. Stalin was
buying
time. Read Mila Pavlichenko's autobiography. She eventually was sent to
the US and became Eleanor Roosevelt's BFF and went on tour begging aid.
The hag's worthless husband complied. Him and Joe became great buddies
too.
A lot of people do not recognize that FDR kept the USA from going for a Communist revolution. He took care of Hoover's Depression and
spread a lot of money around to people who needed it as well as providing cash for big projects around the nation. Been by Shasta or Hoover Damn lately. Some of them were not well thought out as we see the lake behind Hoover slowly drying up having never been built with the idea of supplying great amounts of water to the desert states including Southern California.
Some of my earliest memories are of the vast gaping hole in the Earth that would become Lake Shasta where my father ran a
Project City restaurant and my mother worked as server. She stuck
me under the counter to keep me at hand and out of sight.
On Mon, 11 May 2026 22:38:07 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
I never liked GNOME and switched to SuSE early on since it was KDE.
I don't think there ever was a time where you had to switch
distributions to get a different desktop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Linux
I repress painful memories but I vaguely recall rpm hell from trying to >build a DE other than the default GNOME. gcc 2.96 that couldn't build a >kernel and a homegrown Python that broke existing scripts was the last >straw. SuSE came in a nice, shrink wrapped box with KDE out of the gate. >Sold, American! It wasn't exactly 'sudo rpm -i kde' back then.
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2026 22:38:07 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
I never liked GNOME and switched to SuSE early on since it was KDE.
I don't think there ever was a time where you had to switch
distributions to get a different desktop.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Linux
I repress painful memories but I vaguely recall rpm hell from trying to
build a DE other than the default GNOME. gcc 2.96 that couldn't build a
kernel and a homegrown Python that broke existing scripts was the last
straw. SuSE came in a nice, shrink wrapped box with KDE out of the gate.
Sold, American! It wasn't exactly 'sudo rpm -i kde' back then.
So you're saying that early Red Hat didn't offer at least X11/fvwm or WindowMaker as an alternative? I have difficulties believing that.
On 2026-05-10, Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2026 12:33:30 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
Actually no, a "racist" in practice, is anyone who holds an opinion
of other ethnicities/races, or of any policy pertaining to
immigration and demographics, which is not endorsed by the
prevailing liberal worldview.
It is not whether there is hate involved, but whether the accuser
believes hate is involved.
If there is a value judgement involved, then that falls under the
category of “racism”.
By the way, “race” is not a scientific concept.
The argument that is it not scientific comes from Lewontin, which was
then laundered into "scientist say".
To the layperson, this seems like he found an argument, but it was just
a political position. Science does not prove that race exists or does
not exist. All of the levels of taxonomy, whether "species" or "class"
or "genus" or "order" are not proven to exist or not. They are categorisations that are useful for grouping, categorisations which have predictive and explanatory power.
Simply put, if there is a categorsation which is explanatory power, that
is to say, using these terms or groupings can actually describe common features, lineage and ancestry, then that categorisation is therefore
useful.
Lewontin just did some stupid argument to "prove" it doens't exist, when biology doesn't work that way.
To prove that "race desn't exist", you would need to demonstrate that
the categorisations are meaningless, but he couldn't do that. So he
used mixed peoples to come up with some math that proves. Well nothing.
The fact that humans still use racial terms, and do so without confusion
kind of has to be explained...
| Sysop: | DaiTengu |
|---|---|
| Location: | Appleton, WI |
| Users: | 1,116 |
| Nodes: | 10 (0 / 10) |
| Uptime: | 85:27:48 |
| Calls: | 14,305 |
| Files: | 186,338 |
| D/L today: |
647 files (184M bytes) |
| Messages: | 2,525,478 |
