From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action


So, Paradox is doing its Paradox thing with "Vampire: Bloodlines 2".

I'm not really that excited about "Vampire: Bloodlines 2". I know the
first game in the franchise is considered a classic, but I never
really enjoyed it very much. That's probably in part because I played
it right at release, and it was a buggy and incomplete mess. Despite
the fact that it was the first game to use the new Source engine (even
before "Half Life 2!") it was visually underwhelming, and it was deep
into the "California Vampire" vibe (think "Lost Boys"), which has
never been a genre that I've enjoyed.

It's gameplay felt like a poor imitation of "Deus Ex", with the only
redeeming value being that you could play a character from different
Clans, with potentially different outcomes depending on which clan you
picked. (Although in most cases the experience was pretty similar
regardless of which clan you picked).

Thanks to the hard work of some of its fans, the game got patched to
playable status and I guess it earned its renown, but still, the fact
that a sequel was being made didn't fill me with much excitement. All
the more when I learned that it was being developed by The Chinese
Room, a development studio best known for its walking sims ("Dear
Esther", "Everybody Goes to the Rapture"). They also made a couple of
horror titles ("Still Wakes the Deep", "Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs")
which received some acclaim but still... they aren't a studio known
for games rich with character interactions or deep gameplay. Detailed
worlds, sure, but shallow when it actually came to DO anything in
those worlds.

But it's really the Paradoxing of the game that's the worst of it.
Paradox Interactive, the publisher of "Vampire: Bloodlines 2", is
infamous for going hard on its DLC. You can easily pay two, three, ten
times more for all the DLC than you'd pay for the game itself. For
strategy games (Paradox's bread-and-butter) this is arguably
acceptable; the core game usually is strong enough to stand alone on
its own merits. But CRPGs are much more convoluted, with all its parts
more intertwined. You can, of course, have CRPGs with DLC, but these
expansions are usually new quests and maps that add on to the main
experience.

Not so with "Vampire Bloodlines 2", though, where Paradox has decided
that it will paygate the various clans of the game. The clans are,
essentially, the character classes of the game; they are core parts of
the experience. Worse, two of the most popular clans -the Lasombra and Toreador- are being released as Day 1 DLC, which means these are parts
of the games yanked out of the main game to be sold separately. And
this is only the start of the DLC; its likely even more clans will be
locked behind paywalls too.

Fans of the game are, understandably, a bit upset about this. Myself,
I'm more sanguine, but I was never going to get this game on Day One
anyway. But I expected that eventually I'd grab the game, if only to
see how it compared to the original. Now, that's far less likely. I
really dislike Paradox's reliance on DLC to fill out their stripped
down core gameplay experiences. I've skipped a number of their titles
for that reason alone. It seems likely "Vampire Bloodlines 2" will be
another game I give a miss for this reason.

I just don't feel like rewarding companies for abusive behavior...
especially since Paradox titles have increasingly become poor values
for the dollar.

"Vampire Bloodlines 2" will probably still sell well --the
fetishization of the original coupled with the long wait for the
sequel all but ensures that-- but I don't think it will have quite the
impact of the first game. The whales will buy all the DLC and love it
to death, but I think most players will just grab the core game, find
it too stripped down to be enjoyable, and move on to something better
and more complete.


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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

So, Paradox is doing its Paradox thing with "Vampire: Bloodlines 2".

I'm not really that excited about "Vampire: Bloodlines 2". I know the
first game in the franchise is considered a classic

Second game, the first was VTM: Redemption.

<snip>

Paradox Interactive, the publisher of "Vampire: Bloodlines 2", is
infamous for going hard on its DLC. You can easily pay two, three, ten
times more for all the DLC than you'd pay for the game itself. For
strategy games (Paradox's bread-and-butter) this is arguably
acceptable; the core game usually is strong enough to stand alone on
its own merits. But CRPGs are much more convoluted, with all its parts
more intertwined. You can, of course, have CRPGs with DLC, but these >expansions are usually new quests and maps that add on to the main >experience.

Not so with "Vampire Bloodlines 2", though, where Paradox has decided
that it will paygate the various clans of the game. The clans are, >essentially, the character classes of the game; they are core parts of
the experience. Worse, two of the most popular clans -the Lasombra and >Toreador- are being released as Day 1 DLC

Lasombra "Most Popular"? You couldn't even play as Lasombra in
Bloodlines as I recall.

Just checked my old comp which still had Bloodlines installed - Brujah, Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Toreador, Tremere, Ventrue is all the
clan options in the original game, even after the fan patch.)

Toreador is one of the core clans though, so that is an odd choice
(unless they have expanded the clan list to include a lot more than
Bloodlines did (Redemption you could only play Brujah.))

, which means these are parts

of the games yanked out of the main game to be sold separately. And
this is only the start of the DLC; its likely even more clans will be
locked behind paywalls too.

Fans of the game are, understandably, a bit upset about this. Myself,
I'm more sanguine, but I was never going to get this game on Day One
anyway. But I expected that eventually I'd grab the game, if only to
see how it compared to the original. Now, that's far less likely. I
really dislike Paradox's reliance on DLC to fill out their stripped
down core gameplay experiences. I've skipped a number of their titles
for that reason alone. It seems likely "Vampire Bloodlines 2" will be
another game I give a miss for this reason.

You and me both brother. I never buy anything these days until a
minimum of one or two major patches to stomp on the bugs that went live
with the game.)

I just don't feel like rewarding companies for abusive behavior...
especially since Paradox titles have increasingly become poor values
for the dollar.

"Vampire Bloodlines 2" will probably still sell well --the
fetishization of the original coupled with the long wait for the
sequel all but ensures that-- but I don't think it will have quite the
impact of the first game. The whales will buy all the DLC and love it
to death, but I think most players will just grab the core game, find
it too stripped down to be enjoyable, and move on to something better
and more complete.

A sad prognosis, but likely spot on.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 04:58:38 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the >entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

So, Paradox is doing its Paradox thing with "Vampire: Bloodlines 2".

I'm not really that excited about "Vampire: Bloodlines 2". I know the
first game in the franchise is considered a classic

Second game, the first was VTM: Redemption.

"Bloodlines2 " will be the second game in the Bloodlines series. In
the Vampire: The Masquerade, "Bloodlines 2" will be the 13th PC game.*

I actually preferred "Redemption" to the original "Bloodlines", and I
think part of my disappointment with the later game was how different
it was to the first. The 2000 game was a much more somber experience
that felt truer to the "vampire" mythos; the 2004 game had a lot more
"ain't it cool to be a vampire!" attitude that rubbed me the wrong
way.







* List time! Never let an opportunity to make a list pass you by!
- VTM: Redemption (2000)
- VTM: Bloodlines (2004)
- VTM: Coteries of New York (2019)
- VTM: Shadows of New York (2020)
- VTM: Night Road (2020)
- VTM: Out for Blood (2021)
- VTM: Bloodhunt (2021)
- VTM: Parliment of Knives (2021)
- VTM: Sins of the Sires (2022)
- VTM: Heartless Lullaby (2022)
- VTM: Swansong (2022)
- VTM: Reckoning of New York (2024)
- VTM: Bloodlines 2 (2025, maybe)




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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 04:58:38 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the >>entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

So, Paradox is doing its Paradox thing with "Vampire: Bloodlines 2".

I'm not really that excited about "Vampire: Bloodlines 2". I know the >>>first game in the franchise is considered a classic

Second game, the first was VTM: Redemption.

"Bloodlines2 " will be the second game in the Bloodlines series. In
the Vampire: The Masquerade, "Bloodlines 2" will be the 13th PC game.*

I actually preferred "Redemption" to the original "Bloodlines", and I
think part of my disappointment with the later game was how different
it was to the first. The 2000 game was a much more somber experience
that felt truer to the "vampire" mythos; the 2004 game had a lot more
"ain't it cool to be a vampire!" attitude that rubbed me the wrong
way.

Well Cristof was a Crusader turned against his will, and while he was
now Brujah, that clan hadn't deteriorated yet, so they were still noble scholars.

Bloodlines seemed more, you were partying with someone who bit you, but
hey at least you had a choice between the original 7 clans (not
including Catiffs which I've heard of and "Thin Bloods" which I have
not.)

* List time! Never let an opportunity to make a list pass you by!
- VTM: Redemption (2000)
- VTM: Bloodlines (2004)
- VTM: Coteries of New York (2019)
- VTM: Shadows of New York (2020)
- VTM: Night Road (2020)
- VTM: Out for Blood (2021)
- VTM: Bloodhunt (2021)
- VTM: Parliment of Knives (2021)
- VTM: Sins of the Sires (2022)
- VTM: Heartless Lullaby (2022)
- VTM: Swansong (2022)
- VTM: Reckoning of New York (2024)
- VTM: Bloodlines 2 (2025, maybe)

Only ever heard of the first 2.

Did the other games feature online play and pvp by any chance?

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote in news:7cnrakp8t3ota56v6aji39b293ea3u6d7o@ 4ax.com:

* List time! Never let an opportunity to make a list pass you by!
- VTM: Redemption (2000)
- VTM: Bloodlines (2004)
- VTM: Coteries of New York (2019)
- VTM: Shadows of New York (2020)
- VTM: Night Road (2020)
- VTM: Out for Blood (2021)
- VTM: Bloodhunt (2021)
- VTM: Parliment of Knives (2021)
- VTM: Sins of the Sires (2022)
- VTM: Heartless Lullaby (2022)
- VTM: Swansong (2022)
- VTM: Reckoning of New York (2024)
- VTM: Bloodlines 2 (2025, maybe)

Only ever heard of the first 2.

Did the other games feature online play and pvp by any chance?

Xocyll

Most of these (all except the first two?) were "Choose Your Own Adventure" text-based
games.

I had some small involvement in the patching of Bloodlines. I loved the game even in its
earliest, very rough, form, and as Werner Spahl steadily improved the base game and
unlocked deleted material, I just thought it got better and better.

I wished Troika had been allowed to produce the game they intended to make instead of
being railroaded by the publisher (Activision).

I was really looking forward to a sequel, albeit not really expecting it to be as great as my
nostalgia hoped for.

My heart sank when Paradox took over the project. This killed any hope I had. They
remind me of a county fairground here where we were putting on a horse show about
fifteen years ago.

Use of the main ring: $500 per day
Use of a warm-up area: $150 per day
Use of a seating bank (2 x 10s on scaffolding): $50 per day
Sound system for the announcer: $150 per day

But wait, there's more:

You want speakers for the sound system? $50 per day

That's the last time we showed there, and I'll not be buying anything more from Paradox
Interactive either, though you're right, the game will probably sell.

mpn.
--
Clotho, Lachesis, Atropos -- the only sysadmins that matter
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 12:15:06 -0400, Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote:

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> looked up from reading the >entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

- VTM: Redemption (2000)
- VTM: Bloodlines (2004)
- VTM: Coteries of New York (2019)
- VTM: Shadows of New York (2020)
- VTM: Night Road (2020)
- VTM: Out for Blood (2021)
- VTM: Bloodhunt (2021)
- VTM: Parliment of Knives (2021)
- VTM: Sins of the Sires (2022)
- VTM: Heartless Lullaby (2022)
- VTM: Swansong (2022)
- VTM: Reckoning of New York (2024)
- VTM: Bloodlines 2 (2025, maybe)

Only ever heard of the first 2.
Did the other games feature online play and pvp by any chance?

Not all of them. Most, in fact, were entirely designed as
single-player experiences.

- The "New York" games (Coteries, Shadows, Reckoning)
were all visual-novel style adventure games; story driven
but fairly limited in visuals and options.

- "Out for Blood", "Sins of the Sires", "Night Road" and
"Parliament of Knives" were all text-based adventures.
Yes, text adventures. Apparently quite good for the genre,
but still...

- "Heartless Lullaby" was a (very) short, top-down CRPG

- "Swansong" was most similar to the "Bloodlines" games in
style and mechanics; third-person action/adventure but
fairly limited in scope and fairly dated in gameplay and
visuals.

- Only "Bloodhunt" was an online game, featuring 'battle
royale' mechanics.


All of them were very Indie in scope and design; "Bloodlines 2" is the
closest the franchise has gotten to triple-A quality since 2004. I
don't think there's a huge number of PC gamers who also are big World
of Darkness* fans. There's just too much "Twilight" wrapped around the franchise these days and I think that turns off a lot of video-gamers.

Which is why Paradox's tactic of alienating a number of those fans
even before the game comes out doesn't seem particularly wise to me.









* or whatever the uber-franchise of Vampire/Werewolf/Mummy, etc. is
now called. I think "World of Darkness" has been deprecated, but I
still use it out of convenience.

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

- VTM: Coteries of New York (2019)

I've played this. No interactivity to speak of, text choices with no consequences on static backgrounds. Don't bother.

rms

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

"Mark P. Nelson" <markpnelson@sbcglobal.net> looked up from reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

Xocyll <Xocyll@gmx.com> wrote in news:7cnrakp8t3ota56v6aji39b293ea3u6d7o@ >4ax.com:

* List time! Never let an opportunity to make a list pass you by!
- VTM: Redemption (2000)
- VTM: Bloodlines (2004)
- VTM: Coteries of New York (2019)
- VTM: Shadows of New York (2020)
- VTM: Night Road (2020)
- VTM: Out for Blood (2021)
- VTM: Bloodhunt (2021)
- VTM: Parliment of Knives (2021)
- VTM: Sins of the Sires (2022)
- VTM: Heartless Lullaby (2022)
- VTM: Swansong (2022)
- VTM: Reckoning of New York (2024)
- VTM: Bloodlines 2 (2025, maybe)

Only ever heard of the first 2.

Did the other games feature online play and pvp by any chance?

Xocyll

Most of these (all except the first two?) were "Choose Your Own Adventure" text-based
games.

Ahh I would not even really put them in the class of "video games" then.

I had some small involvement in the patching of Bloodlines. I loved the game even in its
earliest, very rough, form, and as Werner Spahl steadily improved the base game and
unlocked deleted material, I just thought it got better and better.

I never really got into the game at all until after the community patch
was made. I really don't like playing bug riddled games.

I wished Troika had been allowed to produce the game they intended to make instead of
being railroaded by the publisher (Activision).

Never heard of this, just that their biggest issue was not being able to release the game when they wanted to on account of it being made with
the half-life2 engine, but half-life2 had just had a major leak.

Can't let a licensee of your engine release their game before yours is
released after all.

I was really looking forward to a sequel, albeit not really expecting it to be as great as my
nostalgia hoped for.

My heart sank when Paradox took over the project. This killed any hope I had. They
remind me of a county fairground here where we were putting on a horse show about
fifteen years ago.

Use of the main ring: $500 per day
Use of a warm-up area: $150 per day
Use of a seating bank (2 x 10s on scaffolding): $50 per day
Sound system for the announcer: $150 per day

But wait, there's more:

You want speakers for the sound system? $50 per day

Ok that is flat out nonsense, it's not a "sound system" unless sounds
come out of it, a speakerless stereo is as functional as a cinderblock
without speakers.

Now an amplifier, they could get away with that.

"We said it was a sound system, we didn't say it was loud. You want it
louder, we have an amplifier for rent."

That's the last time we showed there, and I'll not be buying anything more from Paradox
Interactive either, though you're right, the game will probably sell.

I don't pre-order and I think the last time I bought a game on release
day was City of Heroes (May 6, 2004.)

I'll wait and see, but the comments thus far about at least one core
clan being in a dlc do not bode well.

At the very least the 7 core clans should always be in the core game,
and there are so many other clans they can release as dlcs in a totally
legit manner.

If you have to buy more manuals from the roleplaying system company to
get those clans, it's legit to charge extra for them in a video game
too.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 14:18:46 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

Not so with "Vampire Bloodlines 2", though, where Paradox has decided
that it will paygate the various clans of the game. The clans are, >essentially, the character classes of the game; they are core parts of
the experience. Worse, two of the most popular clans -the Lasombra and >Toreador- are being released as Day 1 DLC, which means these are parts
of the games yanked out of the main game to be sold separately. And
this is only the start of the DLC; its likely even more clans will be
locked behind paywalls too.

I don't even understand how the game would work like VTM:B if clan
content is an add-on. The clans all interacted in the original, by
design, out of the gate, and wouldn't work without a complete roster.

This feels not only like a cash grab, but a bad way to design an RPG.

It's like a "Sonic and Knuckles" add-on cartridge approach. Bleh.
--
Zag

Give me the liberty to know, to think, to believe,
and to utter freely according to conscience, above
all other liberties. ~John Milton
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On Wed, 27 Aug 2025 08:46:03 -0500, Zaghadka <zaghadka@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 14:18:46 -0400, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,
Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

Not so with "Vampire Bloodlines 2", though, where Paradox has decided
that it will paygate the various clans of the game. The clans are, >>essentially, the character classes of the game; they are core parts of
the experience. Worse, two of the most popular clans -the Lasombra and >>Toreador- are being released as Day 1 DLC, which means these are parts
of the games yanked out of the main game to be sold separately. And
this is only the start of the DLC; its likely even more clans will be >>locked behind paywalls too.

I don't even understand how the game would work like VTM:B if clan
content is an add-on. The clans all interacted in the original, by
design, out of the gate, and wouldn't work without a complete roster.

This feels not only like a cash grab, but a bad way to design an RPG.

It's like a "Sonic and Knuckles" add-on cartridge approach. Bleh.

Apparently Paradox is now "listening to feedback" and "making
adjustments ahead of launch". What this means in actuality is
nebulous.

The obvious solution would be to make all the clans available from the
start, offering the game as a complete experience, but:

a) this is 100% against Paradox's modus operandi of
nickle-and-diming its users for every little addition, and

b) some players have already purchased the "premium" version
of the game, a more expensive version which already
included the missing clans. Suddenly making the clans
free for ALL players would piss off their most loyal
players

(I mean, they COULD just refund the cost of the premium
version to those who bought it, but corporations never,
ever give money back unless they absolutely have to)

More, early (pre-release) reviews indicate the game differs more than
a bit in philosophy and gameplay from the original, which was revered
for its character interactions and multiple styles of getting through
the game (mostly by way of playing a vampire from a different clan
each time). This game is reportedly much more linear, and a bit more
combat focused than the first. One preview compared it to
"Dishonored". (Obviously, not having played the game or even watched
the trailers, I can't speak to the accuracy of that assessment). But
if true, it seems a fairly broad divergence from the original and
makes it even less likely the fans of the original will be as happy
with the game... even if it wasn't ripped to shreds to sell DLC.

It just seems a mess all around. Wrong publisher, wrong developer,
wrong genre, too small a viable fanbase for such a large game, and the
DLC idiocy on top of it? I don't think the game will fail (again, I
think there's enough pent up nostalgia for the original to make people
buy the sequel for that reason alone) but I don't think this game is
going to make as big a splash as it might otherwise have, had the
license been given to almost anyone else.

We'll see.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action

On 8/25/2025 11:18 AM, Spalls Hurgenson wrote:

So, Paradox is doing its Paradox thing with "Vampire: Bloodlines 2".

Thanks to the hard work of some of its fans,

*cough* Werner - who posts here.

the game got patched to
playable status and I guess it earned its renown, but still, the fact
that a sequel was being made didn't fill me with much excitement. All
the more when I learned that it was being developed by The Chinese
Room, a development studio best known for its walking sims ("Dear
Esther", "Everybody Goes to the Rapture"). They also made a couple of
horror titles ("Still Wakes the Deep", "Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs")
which received some acclaim but still... they aren't a studio known
for games rich with character interactions or deep gameplay. Detailed
worlds, sure, but shallow when it actually came to DO anything in
those worlds.

"Vampire Bloodlines 2" will probably still sell well

I'm not sure about that. The hubub has been mostly negative, and about paradox and the dev.

I don't hear or see much of White Wolf Fans around any more so doubt
there's much base from them to buy the game.

I'm only buying it after at least 2 months, preferably a year *if* it's actually good, which it doesn't sound like it will be. Which means
it'll probably end up on some giveaway.
--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'
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