On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
-hhIn any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point vs. credit card pops up. When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to. Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage pointWhich is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
vs. credit card pops up.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander. Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom: < https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to. Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount? Tax dodging? If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card, but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point. Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage pointWhich is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
vs. credit card pops up.
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
-hh
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander. Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors. Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
Tax dodging?Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put thatAnd did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is reallyWhereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMDGood for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMDCorporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now evenNah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I wouldAs I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors. Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud. I have been with them for almost 50 years. As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift. My former employer has a site for that that takes just a few seconds to send a request. I pay by credit card for my HVAC service. We recently replaced our thermostat and then one day a month later the heat pump was not running, we were on emergency power. The tech could have lied and told us the compressor had died. Instead he found that an outside temperature limit setting in the new thermostat was responsible, and changed it. This unit is 16 years old, and I would have believed it was time to get a new one.In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put thatAnd did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is reallyWhereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMDGood for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMDCorporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now evenNah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I wouldAs I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
-hh
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors. Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy; we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.Already running the models out to 2065.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors. Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averaging over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.I've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
Right, you are 62. The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.Already running the models out to 2065.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
-hh
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors. Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Right, you are 62.Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately, there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud. I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing. These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately, there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare. I have different goals involving those who will receive my estate who will cash out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately, there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ; which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing. These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
-hh
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google: < https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately, there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ; which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing. These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
I have different goals ...Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cashThe only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely. There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations. I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up. This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ; which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cashThe only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income
and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes, which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
-hh
On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely. There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Ironically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one whichRight, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash
out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income
and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes, which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:44:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely. There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash
out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income
and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes, which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution
and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and someIronically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one which
for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?
loses the charity tax deduction for the living. Clearly, you need to read better.
-hh
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:44:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash
out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income
and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes,
which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution
and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some
for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?
Ironically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one which
loses the charity tax deduction for the living. Clearly, you need to read better.
You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.No, what you're not comprehending is that I'm referring to making the same donation to
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 8:57:28 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:44:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash
out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income
and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the
traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes,
which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution
and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some
for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?
Ironically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one which
loses the charity tax deduction for the living. Clearly, you need to read better.
I work with one of the top financial planners in the area. I'm already giving charitable organizations annual QCD's direct out of IRA RMD proceeds. When they receive an IRA they typically cash it out, re-invest, and no taxes due. You can't get more tax efficient than 0 income taxes, can you? If so, how?You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.No, what you're not comprehending is that I'm referring to making the same donation to
the charity, but doing so in a more tax-efficient manner. Go ask your financial planner.
-hh
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 12:05:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 8:57:28 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:44:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash
out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the
traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes,
which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution
and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some
for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?
Ironically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one which
loses the charity tax deduction for the living. Clearly, you need to read better.
When it comes to Estate Planning, yeah you can do better than Net 0%. As I said, ask your FA.You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.
No, what you're not comprehending is that I'm referring to making the same donation to
the charity, but doing so in a more tax-efficient manner. Go ask your financial planner.
I work with one of the top financial planners in the area. I'm already giving charitable organizations
annual QCD's direct out of IRA RMD proceeds. When they receive an IRA they typically cash it out,
re-invest, and no taxes due. You can't get more tax efficient than 0 income taxes, can you? If so, how?
On Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 10:25:04 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 12:05:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 8:57:28 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:44:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the
traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes,
which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution
and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some
for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?
Ironically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one which
loses the charity tax deduction for the living. Clearly, you need to read better.
You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.
No, what you're not comprehending is that I'm referring to making the same donation to
the charity, but doing so in a more tax-efficient manner. Go ask your financial planner.
I work with one of the top financial planners in the area. I'm already giving charitable organizationsWhen it comes to Estate Planning, yeah you can do better than Net 0%. As I said, ask your FA.
annual QCD's direct out of IRA RMD proceeds. When they receive an IRA they typically cash it out,
re-invest, and no taxes due. You can't get more tax efficient than 0 income taxes, can you? If so, how?
-hhReally, you can get the IRS to contribute too?
On Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 2:16:34 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Wednesday, February 21, 2024 at 10:25:04 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 12:05:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 8:57:28 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 6:22:55 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 10:44:23 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 7:23:11 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:10:06 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:55:30 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:00:12 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 5:01:43 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:20:00 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:44:52 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 5:25:49 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:08:50 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 11:04:55 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 21, 2023 at 9:50:40 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Monday, December 18, 2023 at 8:00:44 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, December 17, 2023 at 7:44:21 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:00:58 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 5:46:56 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 1:16:20 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 16, 2023 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 9:13:04 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Saturday, December 9, 2023 at 8:42:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 8:47:59 PM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 7:53:13 PM UTC-5, Thomas E. wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 11:21:37 AM UTC-5, -hh wrote:
On Thursday, December 7, 2023 at 2:57:55 AM UTC-5, ed wrote:
On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 2:30:32 PM UTC-8, Thomas E. wrote:
But if you offer cash he is obligated by law to accept it for "all debts public and private."
It's printed right there on our money.
what law would that be?
There is no obligation to accept cash. because it's is legal doesn't mean there's an obligation to accept it:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/legal_tender#:~:text=Legal%20Tender%20refers%20to%20all,or%20services%20that%20were%20rendered.
there's a bill to try to make it an obligation though:This tangent is merely YA attempt by Tom to change the subject away from the one that he knows he's losing.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4128?s=1&r=71
Within the past month, he's poo-pooh'ed a 3% savings, preferring a 2% one, and then tried to disregard
half of a Forbes webpage which shows more fees on CC's than merely the CC issuer.
Now, now Hugh. I don't do debit cards. I only do ACH with taxes and PayPal.Yet you did invoke direct debit transactions by invoking ACH.
Before the cash-back cards came along I did quite a bit with debits. I only had oneHaving the risk only hit once doesn’t mean that it was all no risk.
problem, a debit card that was compromised and used at Fresno gas stations while
I was in Avon Colorado. My bank took care of the bogus transactions.
I said 3.5% pretty much covers the top end, leaving that gate open.Read further down on your same page & add.
Your 3% savings is based on practices that are not common in the world where I live.Which is sheltered within large chains.
Maybe NJ businesses prefer non-traceable cash?That’s the second time you’ve tried that slander.
Stay chained to your chains and your “those grapes were probably bitter”.
I'll take my 2% back on almost everything and be very happy not carryingThe checkbook is rarely carried - merely pulled out for occasional specials,
cash or a checkbook everywhere.
perhaps 1-2x/yr & known in advance. For cash, it’s just not hard to have a
few $20’s in the same wallet as the credit cards. Bonus is that our bank grants
higher interest on our accounts if I use the ATM monthly, so it pays. Literally.
An extra percentage point is not going to make a difference to me.As you’ve snubbed 3%, you’ve tried to make a big deal about 2%. Oops.
Yeah, you did, in the Roth conversion.-hhI do not deny that 3% is better than 2%.
I just went to ACH for a $10,000 purchase for a 3% rebate versus 2% on my card.Which really was a cash discount, not necessarily germane to it being an ACH, right?
I also carry a Target debit card for their 5% cash back - because I shop at TargetIt’s still YA fragmentation and overhead to manage.
and the 5% applies to almost everything in the store.
This all started with the Apple card that pays only 1% on almost all purchases.Nah. The OP was about how Goldman Sachs is apparently going to be leaving Apple,
My 2% on all purchases is double that of routine Apple card transactions. That was my point.
with your comment being:
“How was this deal going to make money for Goldman Sachs when they had to pay for all
the back-office expenses, including customer service staff? Those expenses have been significant:”
The answer there is pretty self-evident: Sachs made a deal with Apple as they were trying to
break into consumer banking and it wasn’t panning out for them (in multiple ways). None of
that has anything to do with your subsequent shift to market cash back percentages.
You brought up 3% as possible if you can negotiate a cash discount.Nope. As noted above, the 3% was the now vs later marginal income tax rate gradient.
So I scanned over my 2023 purchase records for local businesses that I even might
be able to negotiate with. …
Despite how I’ve already said that I’m *not* negotiating.
In the meantime, we were doing some end-of-year charities yesterday and
found some “can you help a little more by covering our CC fees?” dialogs.
Here’s one such example .. it’s listed near the bottom:
< https://www.classy.org/give/498837/#!/donation/checkout>
One of these fees was 4.5%, another was 4.31%.
The Apple card discussion did start in a different thread.Nope, it is this thread.
You suggested that by negotiating a cash discount you could get up to 3% off. How do you know that if you don't negotiate?False, for I didn't claim to be negotiating, as my original comment was: "...what are the typical CC surcharges you’re being hit with to use a CC[?]"
FYI, the first use of the term 'negotiate' came from you, on Dec 5, 2023, 6:37:24 PM:
"You are not going to negotiate with the likes of grocery store chains, online stores, restaurant
chains, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Why even try when you can get 2% off anyway?"
Classy.org is not a charity. It's a company that helps charities put together. If you saw a numberWrong: it is the redirect from the charity. Here's their top page, and when you click on their
there it was an example, not an actual organization site.
'donate' link it takes you to the classy.org page that I cited:
<https://mmsc.org>
The Marine Life site you cited wants a 6.6% add-on for card use! Wow, I cannot find anything evenBecause you've never bothered to have looked.
close to that number,
... and there is no alternative offered!
Sure there is: one can snail mail them a personal check.
Another credit card fee article: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0711/the-truth-about-credit-card-swipe-fees.aspxNo need to, because your first cite from Forbes *did* explain it: there's more than one entity taking a cut.
Based on this article explain how fees are routinely higher than 3.5%.
Yes, the GS item was started in a different thead on how awful the Apple Card really is.
It is *this* thread. Look at the subject line you’re replying to.
Plus look here too in how it’s archived on Google:
< https://groups.google.com/g/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/c/a5ttOHpt3Z4>
Cite numbers from the Forbes article please.
I already told you: continue to scroll down.
You could mail a check, but that's not offered as an alternative on the site. My point.
They send out mailers too, particularly for prior donors.
Motivation to pay by CC online is that one might not make it within the tax year.
Plus they’ve also been in CFC for payroll deductions.
Please supply a 3rd party reference for credit card swipe fees averagingI've never said that they _average_ over 3.5%, Tommy.
over 3.5%, nearing the 4% that you are claiming.
Plus I've already illustrated with the charity that they can & do exceed 4%. Logically, they
only need to exceed the 2% of your cash back in order for it to be a bad deal.
Swipe fee is the trade term for the total cost of credit card fees that go to the card companiesYet nevertheless, your cite from Forbes broke them out separately:
including the acquiring bank, the bank that issued the card, and any intermediaries.
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#what_are_credit_card_processing_fees_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_from_major_credit_card_companies_section>
<https://www.forbes.com/advisor/business/credit-card-processing-fees/#typical_costs_for_credit_card_processing_section>
TL;DR: one needs to add up the fees all together to determine what the actual total is:
Interchange Fees
Payment Processor Fees
Assessment Fees
Rental Fees
In any event I don't like carrying cash or a checkbook just in case and extra 1 or 2 percentage point
vs. credit card pops up.
Which is trying to imply that others are constantly carrying around their checkbook?
Nope, that's already been explicitly stated as being not the case.
And insofar as cash, around $20 or so is a common & easy breakpoint, and can often be
of benefit to smaller merchants who have higher fixed minimum fees per transaction, as
well as may be modestly faster at the checkout than to wait for a swipe/touch/etc.
Likewise, for cash transactions, sometimes its more than just a few percent. I had an instance this
past spring where my cash offer returned much more than I was expecting: a savings of $672.
When it comes to charitable giving I normally send checks.
Same here, but sometimes one can overlook getting the check out on time, or there's a shorter term
urgency, such as for disaster relief.
$672? What % was that and why such a huge amount?
More than the 2% you’re proudly squabbling over.
Tax dodging?
Nope.
If I assume a generous 4% fee avoided that grosses up to $16,800. Had you put that
on my 2% cash back card the gross savings was only $336, not $672. So for my
recent $10k Viking cruise the savings were about $300 for debit in lieu of credit card,
but a net of about $100 versus my card. I took the debit for that extra percentage point.
Yes, I know that there was also a $14 added sales tax consideration for the card use.
And did that huge $300 savings forgo any part of the full CC protection against loss?
We learned that life lesson with a ~$5K loss (net) around fifteen years ago.
My recent experience is that cash takes as long as a credit card. Apple Pay is really
quick, and no waiting for a clerk to make change. At places where you place an order
on a kiosk cash payments are actually slower. You will likely have to wait for a cashier
to come to a register and take your money if you do not pay at the kiosk. At Costco
the DIY checkout process does not take cash and is often much faster than a
checkout lane. In fact, increasingly cash is not even accepted at many businesses I deal with.
Whereas I find that it can vary widely, particularly at small businesses who lack Apple Pay.
I send charitable contribution checks for another reason. They come direct from my IRA RMD
funds and are thus QCD and deducted from gross income.
Good for you! I still have another decade before needing to actually worry about RMDs.
Stifel recently took over my accounts and sent me a checkbook tied to an IRA RMD
cash account. When at Merrill I had to have them send the checks, a time-consuming
process and I have to tell the company about my contributions.
Corporate procedures vary; film at 11. Things like Matching Gifts also have paperwork.
Now I can write them myself and it's just between me and the charity. And now even
small donations by check are not an issue and come off for AGI purposes. You are
probably going to argue that if I send the check I have to pay for a $0.66 stamp!
Nah, not going to bother with ankle-biters.
I make most of my contributions in January, and these are planned ahead of time.
I do not have any issue with getting them out on a timely basis. They are very
important to us. We sit down together and have fun giving away money. It makes
all the time and effort spent in accumulating the means to do this worthwhile.
I mentioned online in case one *missed* making one’s nominal donation.
My company solo 401k is now history. It was rolled over intact to an IRA mid-December.
That simplifies taxes and the RMD process. Only one more 5500EZ for me to file for 2023
and Stifel is now the administrator for the RMD process. No more 1099 forms to be ordered,
filled out and filed either!
A good life simplification to take. We’re guilty of having a bit too much ‘spread out’,
but there’s trades to consolidation.
As for another argument you made, a 3% cash discount for me is only about 1%. I would
get 2% back anyway. I'm not very concerned about the merchant's welfare. The small
difference is not going to put them out of business and they should have built credit card
fees into their pricing.
As I’ve already noted, it is more about the relationship than niggling on the buaxis,
for the benefit is a good business relationship. That may include breaks on price
or on other elements, such as getting a more favorable appointment, or staying
open a few minutes after closing because you’re running late for a pickup, etc.
Sometimes it’s as simple as the tire shop saying, “nah, you don’t need tires yet;
see you next spring”.
LOL. My credit union has on 2 occasions made good on debit card fraud.
I have been with them for almost 50 years.
The loss I was referring to wasn’t due to fraud, but a supplier bankruptcy;
we ended up getting ~$20K back from the protections we had in place.
As for matching gifts that has nothing to do with making the actual gift.
Correct; I was just alluding to how it’s YA paperwork process, and each is different.
If you are 52 then …
...then I would have said that I’m *two* decades removed from RMDs.
… you obviously have a very different set of concerns!
Such as getting my own age correct? /s
My advice is save every penny you can and invest it wisely.
There is nothing better than not having to worry about debts and
expenses 20 years from now.
Already running the models out to 2065.
Right, you are 62.
Closer than your last guess, but still doesn’t really matter, for the
only context was in planning ahead for managing RMDs.
The matching gift paperwork for me is logging into a site, and filling out a
simple form. Takes maybe 2 minutes per, top.
Lucky you. As I said, the individual procedures vary.
Anything past 5 years out gets to be VERY sensitive to current assumptions.
A common risk factor for many is the variable of inflation. Fortunately,
there’s strategies and means to hedge that risk, for those that choose so.
Better be updating every year!
Of course. There’s IIRC four basic strategies which one can employ;
which one is preferable depends on one’s personal comfort level.
Which reminded me of some background for why I’m doing what I’m doing.
These two excerpts should suffice to adequately illustrate:
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/TCJA.jpg>
< http://huntzinger.com/usenet/RMD.jpg>
That's fine for YOU and YOUR welfare.
Actually, those rules apply to *all* American taxpayers.
I have different goals ...
Of course you do, because everyone is different.
... involving those who will receive my estate who will cash out IRA accounts with zero taxes due.
The only entity who receives a traditional IRA tax-free is a Charity.
Everyone else pays taxes on the full amount, as Ordinary Income
and with zero Cost Basis Step-Up.
And if an Estate donates thusly to a charity in such a set-aside, the
traditional 'charity' tax write-off of it is lost to the living. The taxation
beneficiary is the Estate, but only if it is large enough to pay taxes,
which for Fed taxes at your net worth is not you...you're ~$10M short.
But there is a way by which an Estate can make the charitable contribution
and effectively 'gift' the tax deduction to a living heir. But you're not interested
in hearing any such advice from me, so its your loss.
Hugh, I know the relevant tax laws. I always have done my own taxes, and some
for relatives. By plan essentially all of my IRA assets will go to charitable organizations.
I have significant assets outside of IRAs that go to living beneficiaries with basis step-up.
This was already explained. Why do never ask questions, just make blind assumptions?
Ironically, you just admitted to precisely the scenario that I noted as one which
loses the charity tax deduction for the living. Clearly, you need to read better.
You don't get it yet? I am interested in giving money to charities for their use, not for them to gift it back to the living.
No, what you're not comprehending is that I'm referring to making the same donation to
the charity, but doing so in a more tax-efficient manner. Go ask your financial planner.
Sort of. It’s the method where one can capture the tax deduction of giving to a charity, whileI work with one of the top financial planners in the area. I'm already giving charitable organizations
annual QCD's direct out of IRA RMD proceeds. When they receive an IRA they typically cash it out,
re-invest, and no taxes due. You can't get more tax efficient than 0 income taxes, can you? If so, how?
When it comes to Estate Planning, yeah you can do better than Net 0%. As I said, ask your FA.
Really, you can get the IRS to contribute too?
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