From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

The reason this ng is a cesspool, is because all Apple trolls are stupid.

Apple trolls like Alan Baker are so incredibly stupid, they can't even understand the basic plus/minus attributes of the GPS coordinate system.

35.294025420000004 126.77482604000001

*Who is that stupid?*

I saw a reply to him, so I looked up his original post. I was apalled.
Alan Baker proves to own an IQ no greater than about 40 in every post.

He says (many times!) that those exact coordinates are in the ocean.

*Who is that stupid?*

From: Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: I said this was trivial; yet the Apple trolls said it was impossible.
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2025 14:50:31 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID: <10hq3bo$27iam$3@dont-email.me>

In a recent thread, Alan Baker repeatedly claimed those coordinates were in
the ocean, and he claimed that
WTF?

*Who is that stupid?*

In the past, Alan Baker claimed that Usenet headers couldn't be modified.
WTF?

*Who is that stupid?*

It's no longer shocking how incredibly stupid these Apple trolls are.

Snit & Lewis & Jolly Roger & nospam all repeatedly claimed for months that
iOS could graph signal strength because, to them, a megabit per second was exactly the same as a decibel.

WTF?

*Who is that stupid?*

*Snit video purportedly detailing iOS showing Wi-Fi dBm over time*
<https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo>
*It's a fact iOS devices can't even graph Wi-Fi signal strength over time*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/PZuec56EWB0>
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0>

*Who is that stupid?*

The problem with the Apple newsgroups is the Apple trolls infest it.
Remove the Apple trolls and this newsgroup will stop being a cesspool.
Alan Baker, Alan Browne, Chris, Haemactylus, -hh, Jeorg Lorenz,
JF Mezei, Jolly Roger, Lewis, nospam, Tom Elam, Tyrone, Your Name

*Who is that stupid?*
--
Apple trolls defend Apple to the death, no matter what, by using the first (always childishly inane) excuse that comes to their mind to defend Apple.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

On Dec 16, 2025 at 12:13:11 AM EST, "Marian" <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:

The reason this ng is a cesspool

Is because of all the bullshit you post here.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

On 12/16/2025 12:13 AM, Marian wrote:

The reason this ng is a cesspool, is because all Apple trolls are stupid.

Apple trolls like Alan Baker are so incredibly stupid, they can't even understand the basic plus/minus attributes of the GPS coordinate system.

   35.294025420000004    126.77482604000001

Those lat/long coordinates are incomplete. Could be

35.294025420000004 N 126.77482604000001 E South Korea
35.294025420000004 N 126.77482604000001 W Ocean west of California 35.294025420000004 S 126.77482604000001 E Ocean south of Australia 35.294025420000004 S 126.77482604000001 W Pacific Ocean off S. America

The stupidity here is failure to completely specify the lat/long. About
an 40 IQ level of stupid.




--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

On 2025-12-16 09:58, Tom Elam wrote:

On 12/16/2025 12:13 AM, Marian wrote:

The reason this ng is a cesspool, is because all Apple trolls are stupid.

Apple trolls like Alan Baker are so incredibly stupid, they can't even
understand the basic plus/minus attributes of the GPS coordinate system.

    35.294025420000004    126.77482604000001

Those lat/long coordinates are incomplete. Could be

35.294025420000004 N   126.77482604000001 E South Korea
35.294025420000004 N   126.77482604000001 W Ocean west of California 35.294025420000004 S   126.77482604000001 E Ocean south of Australia 35.294025420000004 S   126.77482604000001 W Pacific Ocean off S. America

The stupidity here is failure to completely specify the lat/long. About
an 40 IQ level of stupid.

Typically in "digital" position reporting the lack of sign is considered
a positive value, therefore North and East.

What I find stupid in so many position reporting systems is specifying
the position resolution to about the size of an atom, as above.

At 4 digits after the decimal you are at ~11.1 metres resolution, at 5
digits, 1.1m (in Latitude)
For longitude multiply by cos(lat) to approximate the resolution error.

(For the mathy types, a degree of latitude is 60 minutes, and a minute
of latitude is very close to a nautical mile = 1852m -
So 1 deg = 60 * 1852m = 111,120m - or @ 4th digit 1/10,000 of that...)

(re-posted)
--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

Alan Browne wrote:

The reason this ng is a cesspool, is because all Apple trolls are stupid. >>>
Apple trolls like Alan Baker are so incredibly stupid, they can't even
understand the basic plus/minus attributes of the GPS coordinate system. >>>
    35.294025420000004    126.77482604000001

Those lat/long coordinates are incomplete. Could be

35.294025420000004 N   126.77482604000001 E South Korea
35.294025420000004 N   126.77482604000001 W Ocean west of California
35.294025420000004 S   126.77482604000001 E Ocean south of Australia
35.294025420000004 S   126.77482604000001 W Pacific Ocean off S. America

The stupidity here is failure to completely specify the lat/long. About
an 40 IQ level of stupid.

Typically in "digital" position reporting the lack of sign is considered
a positive value, therefore North and East.

What I find stupid in so many position reporting systems is specifying
the position resolution to about the size of an atom, as above.

At 4 digits after the decimal you are at ~11.1 metres resolution, at 5 digits, 1.1m (in Latitude)
For longitude multiply by cos(lat) to approximate the resolution error.

(For the mathy types, a degree of latitude is 60 minutes, and a minute
of latitude is very close to a nautical mile = 1852m -
So 1 deg = 60 * 1852m = 111,120m - or @ 4th digit 1/10,000 of that...)

I agree with anyone who makes a logically sensible statement, so I agree
with Alan Browne and disagree with both Alan Baker & with Tom Elam.

Then I will add value after I agree with that sensibly logical viewpoint.

Those GPS coordinates are EXACTLY how Apple reports them in the highly
insecure Apple WPS database, and clearly they're all located in Korea.
<https://i.postimg.cc/43ysV3Mr/fermium.jpg>

I gene3ratd them from the Apple database in a single lookup, which takes
about two seconds to complete.

It takes about 60 bytes per line to save the data below from Apple's highly insecure WPS database, which is about 60 MB per million GPS;BSSID pairs.

To save a billion of the Apple WPS BSSID:GPS pairs is about 60 GB.

This is so easy to track AP's using Apple's highly insecure WPS database,
it's like shooting fish in a barrel. It's crazy how trivial destroying
people's privacy is when you know how to query Apple's WPS database.

1 00:22:3f:a5:7b:33 35.29422378 126.77641296
2 10:62:e5:b1:8f:12 35.29444885 126.77671051
3 12:09:a5:53:df:13 35.29491043 126.77599334
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9 58:86:94:51:6b:0e 35.2944374 126.77667999
10 88:36:6c:06:65:38 35.29442214 126.77668762
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19 88:36:6c:b7:02:b0 35.29481506 126.7758255
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26 88:57:1d:3b:3e:e7 35.29479598 126.77539825000001
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216 50:46:ae:1c:6e:83 35.2957611 126.77603912000001
217 50:46:ae:4f:a9:1d 35.29562759 126.77622985
218 50:46:ae:5d:d3:f7 35.29534912 126.77606201
219 50:46:ae:e7:8d:c4 35.29591369 126.77559661000001
220 56:46:ae:4f:a9:1d 35.2956047 126.77623748
221 58:86:94:14:f9:ba 35.29558181 126.77615356
222 60:29:d5:7d:5d:fd 35.2958641 126.77609252
223 62:46:ae:4f:a9:1d 35.295593260000004 126.77624511
224 80:ca:4b:34:ec:1e 35.29566955 126.776268
225 80:ca:4b:41:d1:52 35.29566955 126.77622985
226 80:ca:4b:0e:c5:3e 35.29570388 126.77613067
227 88:3c:1c:90:63:f5 35.29584121 126.77608489
228 08:5d:dd:12:9f:54 35.29575729 126.77597808
229 08:5d:dd:a9:cb:af 35.29591751 126.77636718000001
230 08:5d:dd:be:69:63 35.29563522 126.77593994
231 8a:36:6c:cd:e0:5c 35.29602432 126.77600097
232 8a:3c:1c:90:63:f5 35.29586029 126.77609252
233 90:9f:33:78:60:78 35.29604721 126.77536773
234 0a:5d:dd:12:9f:54 35.29576873 126.77599334
235 0a:5d:dd:be:69:63 35.29561614 126.77594757
236 ba:3c:1c:90:63:f5 35.29584121 126.77608489
237 bc:62:ce:50:29:f0 35.29520034 126.77637481000001
238 c4:e5:32:e5:78:29 35.29533767 126.77600097
239 0c:96:cd:12:e0:47 35.29539108 126.77577972
240 0c:b6:d2:85:1c:3a 35.29597091 126.77560424
241 00:23:aa:c1:1d:02 35.29595947 126.7756195
242 12:23:aa:c1:1d:02 35.29595184 126.7756195
243 1c:ec:72:50:6f:70 35.29543304 126.77540588000001
244 42:23:aa:c1:1d:02 35.29595565 126.7756195
245 9c:a2:f4:d0:8d:c6 35.29564285 126.77597045
246 28:6b:b4:c0:5b:fd 35.29556274 126.77666473000001
247 e4:be:ed:51:e7:f0 35.29564285 126.77607727
248 54:7e:1a:6e:b9:00 35.295448300000004 126.77601623
249 5a:7e:1a:6e:b9:00 35.29544067 126.77601623
250 2e:4e:e9:3f:5f:9f 35.295783990000004 126.77563476
251 28:4e:e9:3f:5f:9f 35.29577636 126.77563476
252 3a:4e:e9:3f:5f:9f 35.29579544 126.77563476
253 1c:e8:9e:36:ea:e4 35.29504776 126.77577972
254 50:46:ae:b1:7e:ff 35.29569244 126.77593994
255 2e:4e:e9:72:8c:d3 35.29540634 126.77609252
256 60:29:d5:ae:2f:78 35.29601669 126.77584838
257 1c:39:29:0d:c0:f9 35.29532623 126.77611541
258 28:4e:e9:72:8c:d3 35.29532623 126.77609252
259 28:6d:97:45:5d:fe 35.29581451 126.77599334
260 80:ca:4b:fe:bd:16 35.29531478 126.77584838
261 50:46:ae:97:56:d0 35.29354858 126.77711486
262 70:5d:cc:96:d5:de 35.293807980000004 126.77748107000001
263 90:9f:33:64:90:d8 35.293109890000004 126.77729034000001
264 00:23:aa:41:0b:f1 35.29380416 126.77499389
265 00:23:aa:47:4a:8e 35.29299545 126.77468872
266 00:23:aa:8e:a2:6a 35.29364395 126.77468872
267 00:23:aa:d9:1b:fa 35.29375076 126.77507781
268 00:27:1c:c7:a1:d4 35.293399810000004 126.77511596000001
269 00:07:89:28:8d:bc 35.292892450000004 126.77526092000001
270 00:07:89:9e:cc:91 35.293472290000004 126.77475738
271 00:07:89:ca:9f:fb 35.29371643 126.77400207000001
272 00:07:89:ca:b9:41 35.29336929 126.77438354
273 00:07:89:d7:82:e8 35.292964930000004 126.7747116
274 00:08:52:3c:9c:a1 35.292892450000004 126.77485656
275 00:08:52:3c:9c:a3 35.29287338 126.77482604000001
276 12:23:aa:47:4a:8e 35.29300308 126.77464294
277 12:23:aa:8e:a2:6a 35.29363632 126.77469635
278 12:23:aa:d9:1b:fa 35.29372024 126.77511596000001
279 12:96:cd:3a:35:df 35.29302978 126.7745819
280 12:96:cd:72:cd:ac 35.29304504 126.77478027000001
281 12:96:cd:c5:52:5c 35.29300308 126.77407836
282 12:96:cd:ce:f8:59 35.292865750000004 126.77511596000001
283 12:09:a5:33:3c:1f 35.29299163 126.7745285
284 12:09:a5:3b:34:67 35.293590540000004 126.77492523000001
285 12:09:a5:51:bf:f7 35.29328155 126.7743988
286 12:f4:5e:0e:72:4b 35.29298782 126.77419281
287 16:7f:67:7f:34:e6 35.29353332 126.77502441
288 18:c5:01:a9:50:2a 35.29311752 126.77510833000001
289 18:c5:01:bc:ea:2a 35.29365539 126.7750473
290 1c:39:29:1c:b9:5f 35.29294204 126.77481842
291 1c:a5:32:f7:8c:62 35.2930603 126.77507019000001
292 1c:e8:9e:0c:10:c0 35.29355621 126.77524566
293 1c:ec:72:50:6d:3b 35.29362869 126.77480316
294 1c:ec:72:58:f1:18 35.2936058 126.77477264000001
295 1c:ec:72:58:f4:92 35.2936058 126.77458953
296 1e:39:29:6a:46:b3 35.29361343 126.7751007
297 22:23:aa:41:0b:f1 35.29380416 126.77499389
298 22:28:bc:62:51:86 35.29367828 126.77466583
299 22:ec:72:58:f1:18 35.29359817 126.77478027000001
300 22:ec:72:58:f4:92 35.29360198 126.77459716
301 24:e4:ce:e9:08:5e 35.29356384 126.77487945
302 24:e8:53:44:16:ac 35.29319763 126.77447509
303 24:e8:53:83:bb:c8 35.29280471 126.77515411
304 28:4e:e9:0f:76:93 35.293109890000004 126.77518463
305 28:6d:97:45:4a:f1 35.29365539 126.7747879
306 28:6d:97:54:1f:95 35.29356384 126.77507781
307 28:6d:97:8c:3a:cc 35.29358673 126.77488708
308 28:6d:97:94:dd:11 35.29353332 126.77497100000001
309 28:6d:97:d3:39:b0 35.29335784 126.77461242
310 28:6d:97:ea:1c:91 35.29302978 126.77452087
311 28:6d:97:fa:4e:21 35.29309463 126.77483367
312 02:27:1c:c7:a1:d4 35.29340362 126.77513885
313 2c:e3:8e:8c:e2:40 35.293537130000004 126.77416229
314 2c:e3:8e:8d:d6:00 35.29319763 126.77423095
315 2c:e3:8e:97:ea:e0 35.29323196 126.77420806
316 2e:4e:e9:0f:76:93 35.29309844 126.77519226
317 38:f4:5e:1e:ae:54 35.29291534 126.77449798
318 38:f4:5e:1e:ca:ba 35.29366683 126.77496337000001
319 38:f4:5e:0e:72:4b 35.2929573 126.77411651
320 3a:f4:5e:1e:ae:54 35.29293823 126.77452087
321 40:31:3c:9e:30:2a 35.29349136 126.77481842
322 40:ca:63:31:16:62 35.29356384 126.77497100000001
323 42:23:aa:47:4a:8e 35.29300308 126.77468872
324 42:23:aa:8e:a2:6a 35.29364395 126.77470397
325 42:23:aa:d9:1b:fa 35.29373168 126.7751007
326 42:2f:86:6c:f7:a6 35.29342651 126.77515411
327 46:cb:8b:bf:c6:22 35.293254850000004 126.77453613
328 46:cb:8b:e1:7a:68 35.29336929 126.77529907
329 04:09:a5:33:3c:1f 35.29300689 126.77457427
330 04:09:a5:3b:34:67 35.29359817 126.77489471
331 04:09:a5:51:bf:f7 35.29329299 126.77440643
332 50:46:ae:74:a1:bd 35.293056480000004 126.77466583
333 50:46:ae:8c:71:91 35.29356765 126.77516174
334 50:46:ae:9d:34:99 35.29345321 126.77519226
335 50:46:ae:d7:ba:f4 35.29364013 126.77487182
336 50:46:ae:0e:0e:a7 35.293445580000004 126.77497100000001
337 50:91:e3:95:60:a6 35.292819970000004 126.77423858
338 50:fd:d5:6e:61:5c 35.29358673 126.77481842
339 50:fd:d5:82:fc:ab 35.29352188 126.77413177
340 50:fd:d5:90:27:6f 35.29364395 126.77474212
341 54:7e:1a:0a:d1:97 35.29342651 126.77449798
342 5a:7e:1a:0a:d1:97 35.29345703 126.7745285
343 60:29:d5:00:dd:8f 35.29349517 126.7750473
344 60:29:d5:01:2f:c4 35.29323959 126.77463531000001
345 60:29:d5:a7:54:18 35.2928276 126.77506256000001
346 60:29:d5:ae:12:9f 35.29360198 126.7751007
347 62:91:e3:95:60:a6 35.29280853 126.77423858
348 68:3a:48:1f:65:7e 35.29356002 126.77505493
349 70:2c:1f:55:eb:a2 35.29368591 126.77475738
350 70:2c:1f:56:e0:55 35.293518060000004 126.77509307
351 70:5d:cc:6e:44:56 35.29328918 126.7748413
352 70:5d:cc:6f:ef:16 35.29357147 126.77500152
353 70:5d:cc:ad:a6:80 35.29349517 126.77519226
354 70:5d:cc:c6:50:fe 35.2931137 126.77483367
355 76:40:be:65:42:a8 35.29277038 126.77419281
356 80:ca:4b:1b:06:72 35.29290771 126.77441406
357 80:ca:4b:55:89:7a 35.2935791 126.77481842
358 1c:ec:72:43:68:57 35.29525756 126.77693939000001
359 70:5d:cc:52:21:c6 35.29499435 126.77783203
360 b4:a9:4f:62:c5:e6 35.295158380000004 126.77710723
361 ba:a9:4f:62:c5:e6 35.2951622 126.77732086
362 c6:a9:4f:62:c5:e6 35.29518127 126.77729797
363 00:07:89:3d:bb:7f 35.29569244 126.7743988
364 12:f4:5e:0b:66:df 35.2950592 126.77472686
365 1c:e8:9e:ca:d9:47 35.29525375 126.77410888
366 28:4e:e9:01:ba:b3 35.29596328 126.77406311
367 28:4e:e9:0d:0d:af 35.29594802 126.77472686
368 28:6b:b4:03:cd:17 35.29567337 126.77416229
369 2e:4e:e9:01:ba:b3 35.2959671 126.77399444
370 2e:4e:e9:0d:0d:af 35.29602813 126.77479553
371 38:f4:5e:0b:66:df 35.29501724 126.77464294
372 40:ca:63:bf:f5:ae 35.2952156 126.77403259
373 50:46:ae:5d:0e:9f 35.29600906 126.77487182
374 50:46:ae:75:63:80 35.29568481 126.77436065
375 50:fd:d5:17:93:c6 35.29563522 126.77405548
376 60:29:d5:b1:81:d5 35.29579544 126.77490997
377 64:cb:e9:13:8a:9a 35.29558944 126.77423095
378 70:5d:cc:c9:14:7a 35.29550933 126.77415466000001
379 88:3c:1c:ab:fc:0b 35.29561614 126.77500152
380 88:57:1d:0b:82:39 35.29566192 126.77424621
381 b4:a9:4f:1c:65:fb 35.29603576 126.77462005
382 b4:a9:4f:02:67:5a 35.29568099 126.77456665
383 28:6d:97:ae:c2:c8 35.29577255 126.77462005
384 28:6d:97:f6:fa:f2 35.29536056 126.7746582
385 28:6d:97:f7:df:11 35.294967650000004 126.77506256000001
386 3a:5d:dd:df:15:57 35.29603576 126.77470397
387 50:46:ae:4f:80:d5 35.29581832 126.7747116
388 50:fd:d5:a5:59:18 35.29528427 126.77491760000001
389 56:46:ae:4f:80:d5 35.29584503 126.77473449
390 60:29:d5:63:d3:16 35.29602813 126.77519989
391 70:2c:1f:86:e5:2e 35.295040130000004 126.77532196
392 86:25:19:ca:f1:c7 35.29604339 126.77488708
393 88:36:6c:5d:7f:bc 35.29579544 126.77529144
394 08:5d:dd:df:15:57 35.29601669 126.7745285
395 0a:5d:dd:df:15:57 35.29604721 126.77451324
396 bc:10:2f:7f:ba:0b 35.29519653 126.77412414
397 da:e3:5e:5c:38:66 35.2957611 126.77399444
398 f0:09:0d:25:82:e2 35.2951889 126.77474975
399 70:2c:1f:6f:85:60 35.29552459 126.77452087
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

Alan Browne wrote:

Oh. Also the lat/long pair above is ridiculously high resolution.
(Roughly atomic scale!).

Neglected to add that other formats like MGRS and UTM could be output
from most GPS receivers.

Alan Browne,

I agree with anyone who makes a logically sensible viewpoint, no matter who they are, and I disagree with those who don't, no matter who they are.

You likely know more about GPS than I do, for sure, so I appreciate that information, however, that's EXACTLY the output from Apple's WPS DB.
<https://i.postimg.cc/43ysV3Mr/fermium.jpg>

Since you didn't troll, I will treat you as an adult in this post.
I won't disagree with your characterization of decimal GPS accuracy.
<https://i.postimg.cc/C5Pcb6RQ/decimal.jpg>

I will simply point out those results came directly from Apple's WPS DB.
<https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator>
python.exe apple_bssid_locator.py 00:22:3f:a5:7b:33

Check out your own BSSID by typing it into this web page, and click the
button to show all your neighbors' access points and BSSID:GPS pairs.
<https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid&bssid=00-22-3f-a5-7b-33>

The scripts I used and the results are covered in another thread.
This thread is about Alan Baker and the Apple trolls claiming that Apple's highly insecure WPS database contains AP:GPS pairs in the middle of the
ocean simply because the Apple trolls don't understand anything.

The Apple trolls, like Alan Baker & Tom Elam, know nothing about anything.
And yet, they feel so very confident claiming Apple stores GPS locations wrongly in they Apple WPS database.

That's what this thread is about.
It proves what the Apple trolls are.

In this case, the Apple trolls can't fathom a positive longitude.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

On Dec 17, 2025 at 12:14:34 AM MST, "Marian" wrote <10htl8p$gjr$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

Alan Browne wrote:

Oh. Also the lat/long pair above is ridiculously high resolution.
(Roughly atomic scale!).

Neglected to add that other formats like MGRS and UTM could be output
from most GPS receivers.

Alan Browne,

I agree with anyone who makes a logically sensible viewpoint, no matter who they are, and I disagree with those who don't, no matter who they are.

If you have truly grown in this way that is good. Happy to see the change. If true.

...
--
It's impossible for someone who is at war with themselves to be at peace with you.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

On 12/16/2025 12:36 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

On 2025-12-16 09:58, Tom Elam wrote:

On 12/16/2025 12:13 AM, Marian wrote:

The reason this ng is a cesspool, is because all Apple trolls are
stupid.

Apple trolls like Alan Baker are so incredibly stupid, they can't even
understand the basic plus/minus attributes of the GPS coordinate system. >>>
    35.294025420000004    126.77482604000001

Those lat/long coordinates are incomplete. Could be

35.294025420000004 N   126.77482604000001 E South Korea
35.294025420000004 N   126.77482604000001 W Ocean west of California
35.294025420000004 S   126.77482604000001 E Ocean south of Australia
35.294025420000004 S   126.77482604000001 W Pacific Ocean off S. America >>
The stupidity here is failure to completely specify the lat/long.
About an 40 IQ level of stupid.

Typically in "digital" position reporting the lack of sign is considered
a positive value, therefore North and East.

What I find stupid in so many position reporting systems is specifying
the position resolution to about the size of an atom, as above.

At 4 digits after the decimal you are at ~11.1 metres resolution, at 5 digits, 1.1m (in Latitude)
For longitude multiply by cos(lat) to approximate the resolution error.

(For the mathy types, a degree of latitude is 60 minutes, and a minute
of latitude is very close to a nautical mile = 1852m -
So 1 deg = 60 * 1852m = 111,120m - or @ 4th digit 1/10,000 of that...)

(re-posted)

On a quiz where we were to find a ground target and record the position
my answer was marked wrong for not including North and West. Even though
in the context the target was know to be in the continental U.S.!
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

Chris wrote:

If you understood the code you'd know that the WPS DB returns the lat/lon
as a 64bit integer and the python script converts into a float with a
simple multiplication of 1e-8. Anything beyond the 8th dp is noise.

So what you claim as being exactly what is in the Apple WPS db is factually incorrect. Yet again.

I agree with anyone who states a logically sensible viewpoint, no matter
who they are, & I disagree with those who don't, no matter who they are.

Here is some output from my bssid.bat script which I've provided to you.

BSSID: 6a:b2:03:2f:1b:60
Latitude: 32.45987701
Longitude: -93.81723022

BSSID: 6e:b2:03:2f:1b:60
Latitude: 32.459846490000004
Longitude: -93.81730651000001

BSSID: 84:eb:3e:f8:36:d3
Latitude: 32.45880508
Longitude: -93.81717681

BSSID: 84:eb:3e:fa:b2:63
Latitude: 32.4595375
Longitude: -93.81742858

BSSID: 84:eb:3f:08:e0:72
Latitude: 32.45973968
Longitude: -93.81745147000001

BSSID: 8c:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
Latitude: 32.45948791
Longitude: -93.81759643000001

BSSID: 8c:85:80:d1:be:37
Latitude: 32.45985031
Longitude: -93.81759643000001

Why do you think the decimal places are what they are, Chris?
Here is the code that reported that information. Run it yourself.

@echo off
:: This is C:\app\os\python\apple_bssid_locator\bssid.bat
:: v1p0 20251205
:: Logs up to 400 BSSID:GPS pairs from Apple's WPS public database
:: Loop until user types q
:: v1p1 20251214
:: Saves to time-date stampled results.txt log file
:: Listed in clusters ordered by when they were added to Apple's WPS db
:: v1p2 20251214
:: Adds: input cleanup, filename-safe BSSID, cleared LAT/LON
:: v1p2 20251215
:: Timestamp results.txt so it's not overwritten

: Log results
set LOGDIR=%~dp0log
if not exist "%LOGDIR%" mkdir "%LOGDIR%"

:: Create a unique session log (YYYYMMDD_HHMMSS)
for /f %%A in ('wmic os get localdatetime ^| find "."') do set dt0=%%A
set "session_ts=%dt0:~0,8%_%dt0:~8,6%"
set "session_log=%LOGDIR%\session_%session_ts%.log"

echo === New BSSID lookup session started at %date% %time% === >> "%session_log%"

echo.
echo === Nearby Wi-Fi Networks ===
netsh wlan show networks mode=bssid
echo =============================

:loop
echo.
set /p BSSID=Enter the BSSID (or q to quit):

if /I "%BSSID%"=="q" goto end

:: --- Clean up input ---
set "BSSID=%BSSID:"=%"
set "BSSID=%BSSID: =%"

:: --- Make filename-safe version ---
set "safeBSSID=%BSSID::=-%"

:: --- Generate timestamp for THIS lookup ---
for /f %%A in ('wmic os get localdatetime ^| find "."') do set dt=%%A
set "ts=%dt:~0,8%_%dt:~8,6%"

:: --- Timestamped output file ---
set "outfile=%LOGDIR%\bssid_%safeBSSID%_%ts%.txt"

:: --- Clear previous coordinates ---
set LAT=
set LON=

echo === Lookup started at %date% %time% === > "%outfile%"
echo BSSID: %BSSID% >> "%outfile%"
echo. >> "%outfile%"

:: --- Run Python lookup ---
REM python.exe apple_bssid_locator.py %BSSID% >> "%outfile%"
python.exe apple_bssid_locator.py %BSSID% --all >> "%outfile%"

:: --- Display results ---
echo -----------------------------------------------
type "%outfile%"
echo -----------------------------------------------

:: --- Extract coordinates ---
for /f "tokens=2 delims=: " %%A in ('findstr /i "Latitude" "%outfile%"')
do set LAT=%%A
for /f "tokens=2 delims=: " %%B in ('findstr /i "Longitude" "%outfile%"')
do set LON=%%B

echo === Lookup finished at %date% %time% === >> "%outfile%"
echo. >> "%outfile%"

:: --- Append to session log ---
echo [%date% %time%] BSSID: %BSSID% >> "%session_log%"
echo Latitude: %LAT% >> "%session_log%"
echo Longitude: %LON% >> "%session_log%"
echo. >> "%session_log%"

:: --- Append to master log ---
echo [%date% %time%] BSSID: %BSSID% >> "%LOGDIR%\results.log"
echo Latitude: %LAT% >> "%LOGDIR%\results.log"
echo Longitude: %LON% >> "%LOGDIR%\results.log"
echo. >> "%LOGDIR%\results.log"

:: --- Open in Google Maps ---
if defined LAT if defined LON start msedge "https://www.google.com/maps/search/?api=1&query=%LAT%,%LON%"

goto loop

:end
echo Exiting. Goodbye!

:: end of C:\app\os\python\apple_bssid_locator\bssid.bat
--
As you know, I always respond to people in the same manner as they to me. Helping others & learning from them is what this Usenet ng is all about.
--- Synchronet 3.21a-Linux NewsLink 1.2

From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

Chris wrote:

Here is some output from my bssid.bat script which I've provided to you.

BSSID: 6a:b2:03:2f:1b:60
Latitude: 32.45987701
Longitude: -93.81723022

BSSID: 6e:b2:03:2f:1b:60
Latitude: 32.459846490000004
Longitude: -93.81730651000001

BSSID: 84:eb:3e:f8:36:d3
Latitude: 32.45880508
Longitude: -93.81717681

BSSID: 84:eb:3e:fa:b2:63
Latitude: 32.4595375
Longitude: -93.81742858

BSSID: 84:eb:3f:08:e0:72
Latitude: 32.45973968
Longitude: -93.81745147000001

BSSID: 8c:76:3f:f8:5d:cd
Latitude: 32.45948791
Longitude: -93.81759643000001

BSSID: 8c:85:80:d1:be:37
Latitude: 32.45985031
Longitude: -93.81759643000001

Why do you think the decimal places are what they are, Chris?

It's literally explained to you above. Floating point values are always an approximation when interpreted in code. https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/python/floating-point-error-in-python/

Any novice programmer knows this.

The data I presented are the actual floating-point numbers returned from
the original source data stored in Apple's highly insecure WPS database.

The long decimals are not modifications as they're the raw float values.

I certainly can *format* it, after the fact, to 6 or 8 decimal places.
But that doesn't change the fact that's how it's *stored* in the WPS db.

Here's that formatting change; but that's not how it's stored (in binary,
of course, using floating-point (IEEE 754 doubles) where the python script
is printing the raw float values returned from Apple's WPS database API.

Python's print() will show enough digits to uniquely identify the float.
Some values happen to have a clean binary representation that converts back
to a short decimal (e.g., 32.45987701). Others don't, so we see long tails like 32.459846490000001.

But what matters is that I showed how it's stored in Apple's WPS db.
If you don't like how it's stored, we can round it to any number of dp.

Here's a python script that prints to 6 decimal places, but it doesn't
change how the information is stored in Apple's highly insecure WPS db.

#!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-

# Implementation based on https://github.com/hubert3/iSniff-GPS
# Usage: apple_bssid_locator.py 34:DB:FD:43:E3:A1 --map

import argparse
import sys
import code
import requests
import webbrowser
import AppleWLoc_pb2

def parse_arguments():
parser = argparse.ArgumentParser()
parser.add_argument("bssid", type=str, help="display the location of the bssid")
parser.add_argument("-m", "--map", help="shows the location on google maps", action='store_true')
parser.add_argument("-a", "--all", help="shows all results returned, not just the requested one", action='store_true')
args = parser.parse_args()
return args

def format_bssid(bssid):
return ':'.join(e.rjust(2, '0') for e in bssid.split(':'))

def process_result(apple_wloc):
device_locations = {}
for wifi_device in apple_wloc.wifi_devices:
if wifi_device.HasField('location'):
lat = wifi_device.location.latitude * 1e-8
lon = wifi_device.location.longitude * 1e-8
mac = format_bssid(wifi_device.bssid)
device_locations[mac] = (lat,lon)
return device_locations

def query_bssid(bssid, output_file="results.txt"):
apple_wloc = AppleWLoc_pb2.AppleWLoc()
wifi_device = apple_wloc.wifi_devices.add()
wifi_device.bssid = bssid
apple_wloc.unknown_value1 = 0
apple_wloc.return_single_result = 0 # request ALL results
serialized_apple_wloc = apple_wloc.SerializeToString()
length_serialized_apple_wloc = len(serialized_apple_wloc)

headers = {'User-Agent':'locationd/1753.17 CFNetwork/889.9 Darwin/17.2.0'}
data = b"\x00\x01\x00\x05"+b"en_US"+b"\x00\x13"+b"com.apple.locationd"+b"\x00\x0a"+b"8.1.12B411"+b"\x00\x00\x00\x01\x00\x00\x00" + bytes((length_serialized_apple_wloc,)) + serialized_apple_wloc
r = requests.post('https://gs-loc.apple.com/clls/wloc', headers=headers, data=data)

apple_wloc = AppleWLoc_pb2.AppleWLoc()
apple_wloc.ParseFromString(r.content[10:])

# Build dictionary of results
results = {}
with open(output_file, "w") as f:
for wifi_device in apple_wloc.wifi_devices:
if wifi_device.HasField('location'):
lat = wifi_device.location.latitude * 1e-8
lon = wifi_device.location.longitude * 1e-8
mac = format_bssid(wifi_device.bssid)
results[mac] = (lat, lon)
f.write(f"{mac}\t{lat:.6f}\t{lon:.6f}\n")

print(f"Saved {len(results)} entries to {output_file}")
return results

def main():
args = parse_arguments()
print("Searching for location of bssid: %s" % args.bssid)
results = query_bssid(args.bssid)

# Determine which BSSIDs to process
bssids_to_process = results.keys() if args.all else [args.bssid.lower()]

found = False
for bssid in bssids_to_process:
if bssid in results:
lat, lon = results[bssid]
if lat == -180.0 and lon == -180.0:
continue # Skip entries that were not found
if found:
print()
print(f"BSSID: {bssid}")
# Clean, consistent 6-decimal output
print(f"Latitude: {lat:.6f}")
print(f"Longitude: {lon:.6f}")
if args.map:
url = f"http://www.google.com/maps/place/{lat:.6f},{lon:.6f}"
webbrowser.open(url)
found = True

if not found:
print("The bssid was not found.")

if __name__ == '__main__':
main()
--
I agree with anyone who states a logically sensible viewpoint, no matter
who they are, & I disagree with those who don't, no matter who they are.
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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

On 2025-12-15 21:13, Marian wrote:

The reason this ng is a cesspool, is because all Apple trolls are stupid.

Apple trolls like Alan Baker are so incredibly stupid.

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

On 2025-12-19 10:40, candycanearter07 wrote:

Never trust a float for anything that requires precision.

Silly statement.

If you understand the structure of the float (IEEE 754) as implemented
in your programming language and OS then analyzing the _resolution_ of
the floating value and the resultant _precision_ of the result (2 things
that many programmers ignore) then float is fine for many (if not all)
things requiring precision.

As I stated in another post, Python (and many C) programmers seem quite
lazy in this respect and so liberally use 64 bit float where 32 would
do. Or even 16. So much excess resolution pretty much guarantees conservation of information in most cases with a reasonably large number
of operations. (akin to having a 500HP engine where 200HP is much more
than adequate).

A key point is understanding the effect of operations on the _precision_
of an operation and the order of operations on variables and the result
that conserve information and _precision_ and not merely _resolution_
which itself is a characteristic of the "instrument" (in this case CPU registers and memory and not a guarantee of _precision_ in the result).

Implementing precision operations as integer values with some assigned resolution to LSB (say: LSB = 0.001 metres) is NO different if the order
of operations is not carefully designed to conserve actual _information_
in a sequence of operations.
--
"It would be a measureless disaster if Russian barbarism overlaid
the culture and independence of the ancient States of Europe."
Winston Churchill

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From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

Alan Browne wrote:

On 2025-12-19 10:40, candycanearter07 wrote:

Never trust a float for anything that requires precision.

Silly statement.

If you understand the structure of the float (IEEE 754) as implemented
in your programming language and OS then analyzing the _resolution_ of
the floating value and the resultant _precision_ of the result (2 things that many programmers ignore) then float is fine for many (if not all) things requiring precision.

As I stated in another post, Python (and many C) programmers seem quite
lazy in this respect and so liberally use 64 bit float where 32 would
do. Or even 16. So much excess resolution pretty much guarantees conservation of information in most cases with a reasonably large number
of operations. (akin to having a 500HP engine where 200HP is much more
than adequate).

A key point is understanding the effect of operations on the _precision_
of an operation and the order of operations on variables and the result
that conserve information and _precision_ and not merely _resolution_
which itself is a characteristic of the "instrument" (in this case CPU registers and memory and not a guarantee of _precision_ in the result).

Implementing precision operations as integer values with some assigned resolution to LSB (say: LSB = 0.001 metres) is NO different if the order
of operations is not carefully designed to conserve actual _information_
in a sequence of operations.

To keep this thread on the concept of answering WHY Apple's precision is
what it is when they store my BSSID (or anyone's BSSID) in their highly insecure yet very public easily accessed WPS database, I'm not disputing
Alan Browne's explanation of floating-point behavior or the distinction
between resolution and precision.

My main point about Apple's highly insecure yet very public WPS database is much narrower and has nothing to do with whether Python uses 32-bit or
64-bit floats, or whether IEEE 754 is appropriate for numerical work.

What I am showing is simply the raw form in which Apple stores these coordinates in the WPS database. The database uses ten-digit integers that convert into latitude and longitude values with several decimal places.
That is the precision of the stored data, regardless of whether the
underlying measurements are accurate to that level.

Enter the BSSID (or q to quit): 00:18:f8:c1:4a:65
-----------------------------------------------
=== Lookup started at Sat 12/20/2025 4:18:02.21 ===
BSSID: 00:18:f8:c1:4a:65

Searching for location of bssid: 00:18:f8:c1:4a:65

BSSID: 00:18:f8:c1:4a:65
Raw latitude integer: 3245990371
Raw longitude integer: -9381384277
Latitude (degrees): 32.459904
Longitude (degrees): -93.813843

BSSID: 02:aa:a0:e3:5f:38
Raw latitude integer: 3245890808
Raw longitude integer: -9381494903
Latitude (degrees): 32.458908
Longitude (degrees): -93.814949

BSSID: 44:1c:12:99:23:58
Raw latitude integer: 3245909881
Raw longitude integer: -9381492614
Latitude (degrees): 32.459099
Longitude (degrees): -93.814926
... and so on ...

The technical question I am raising is why an access point that is both
hidden and marked nomap appears in the database at all. To any precision!

The number of decimal places is not the main issue, although it could be indicative of how the system works by knowing WHY it's what it is.

The main privacy issue is that the access point was collected and stored despite explicit opting out signals not to include it. That is a privacy concern, not a floating-point concern.

I am focusing on the behavior of the database and the implications for
users who expect nomap and hidden SSIDs to prevent this kind of collection.

The integer format and the float conversion are just the mechanism that
reveals the underlying data; they are not the core of the problem I am
pointing out. address it directly.

Despite Alan Baker ridiculing the precision, it is what Apple made it to
be. So what we need to understand is WHY Apple made it to what it is.

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