• Re: Mac interface inconsistencies

    From Tom Elam@thomas.e.elam@gmail.com to comp.sys.mac.advocacy on Wed May 6 11:16:57 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

    On 5/5/26 12:08 AM, Alan wrote:
    On 2026-05-04 14:33, Tom Elam wrote:
    On 5/4/26 4:47 PM, Alan wrote:
    Wow. Different applications behave differently.

    Very similar Mac App functions with different behavior. I'm not
    comparing Final Cut Pro to Adobe products here.

    Messaging and email aren't really that similar, Liarboy.

    Emails are discrete communications, and while you CAN now thread them in most email programs, it is an option. That's why most email
    conversations include quoted text.

    Messages comes out of SMS messaging which has been inherently threaded conversations for a very long time. Typically one DOESN'T delete
    individual messages in thread of messages and replies.

    Emails tend to be longer, and one organizes them into folders if they're worth keeping.  Emails are (usually) multiple paragraphs, meaning that
    an automatic <Send> on hitting return would be absurd.

    Messages are short messages dashed off and nobody is organizing them
    into folders. Since they're (often) a single sentence (or even just a sentence fragment)...

    ...and because they're delivered immediately, using <Return> as <Send>
    works very well. Even if you intended to write more than a single paragraph...

    ...(which you CAN do if you learn that <shift-Return> gives you a new
    line within a message)...

    ...the immediacy of the delivery means that the recipient will see them together anyway.

    In short, different use cases result in different interfaces.

    But, when you press Return in Mail you get a new line. Same in every
    other email app I have ever used. In Messages press Return and you send
    the message. That's why you need a Send button in Messages to be
    consistent with Mail. Both are means of carrying on a written conversation.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Brock McNuggets@brock.mcnuggets@gmail.com to comp.sys.mac.advocacy on Wed May 6 10:37:25 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

    On May 6, 2026 at 2:16:57 AM MST, "Tom Elam" wrote <10tf0ua$12q0o$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 5/5/26 12:08 AM, Alan wrote:
    On 2026-05-04 14:33, Tom Elam wrote:
    On 5/4/26 4:47 PM, Alan wrote:
    Wow. Different applications behave differently.

    Very similar Mac App functions with different behavior. I'm not
    comparing Final Cut Pro to Adobe products here.

    Messaging and email aren't really that similar, Liarboy.

    Emails are discrete communications, and while you CAN now thread them in
    most email programs, it is an option. That's why most email
    conversations include quoted text.

    Messages comes out of SMS messaging which has been inherently threaded
    conversations for a very long time. Typically one DOESN'T delete
    individual messages in thread of messages and replies.

    Emails tend to be longer, and one organizes them into folders if they're
    worth keeping. Emails are (usually) multiple paragraphs, meaning that
    an automatic <Send> on hitting return would be absurd.

    Messages are short messages dashed off and nobody is organizing them
    into folders. Since they're (often) a single sentence (or even just a
    sentence fragment)...

    ...and because they're delivered immediately, using <Return> as <Send>
    works very well. Even if you intended to write more than a single
    paragraph...

    ...(which you CAN do if you learn that <shift-Return> gives you a new
    line within a message)...

    ...the immediacy of the delivery means that the recipient will see them
    together anyway.

    In short, different use cases result in different interfaces.

    But, when you press Return in Mail you get a new line. Same in every
    other email app I have ever used. In Messages press Return and you send
    the message. That's why you need a Send button in Messages to be
    consistent with Mail. Both are means of carrying on a written conversation.

    Email is:
    * longer-form
    * asynchronous
    * often edited before sending
    * structured (subjects, signatures, quoting)

    Messages is:
    * short, rapid-fire
    * conversational
    * real-time or near real-time
    * low friction by design

    The Return key doing different things isn’t random – it's optimized for each
    use pattern. Good UI design usually follows:
    * internal consistency (the app behaves predictably within itself)
    * platform conventions (similar apps behave similarly)

    Messaging apps often treat Return as send. Email clients almost never do. Each category is internally consistent. Written conversation is not one monolithic category.
    --
    It's impossible for someone who is at war with themselves to be at peace with you.
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Alan@nuh-uh@nope.com to comp.sys.mac.advocacy on Wed May 6 09:43:11 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

    On 2026-05-06 02:16, Tom Elam wrote:
    On 5/5/26 12:08 AM, Alan wrote:
    On 2026-05-04 14:33, Tom Elam wrote:
    On 5/4/26 4:47 PM, Alan wrote:
    Wow. Different applications behave differently.

    Very similar Mac App functions with different behavior. I'm not
    comparing Final Cut Pro to Adobe products here.

    Messaging and email aren't really that similar, Liarboy.

    Emails are discrete communications, and while you CAN now thread them
    in most email programs, it is an option. That's why most email
    conversations include quoted text.

    Messages comes out of SMS messaging which has been inherently threaded
    conversations for a very long time. Typically one DOESN'T delete
    individual messages in thread of messages and replies.

    Emails tend to be longer, and one organizes them into folders if
    they're worth keeping.  Emails are (usually) multiple paragraphs,
    meaning that an automatic <Send> on hitting return would be absurd.

    Messages are short messages dashed off and nobody is organizing them
    into folders. Since they're (often) a single sentence (or even just a
    sentence fragment)...

    ...and because they're delivered immediately, using <Return> as <Send>
    works very well. Even if you intended to write more than a single
    paragraph...

    ...(which you CAN do if you learn that <shift-Return> gives you a new
    line within a message)...

    ...the immediacy of the delivery means that the recipient will see
    them together anyway.

    In short, different use cases result in different interfaces.

    But, when you press Return in Mail you get a new line. Same in every
    other email app I have ever used. In Messages press Return and you send
    the message. That's why you need a Send button in Messages to be
    consistent with Mail. Both are means of carrying on a written conversation.

    Talking of "consistency":

    May 4:

    'An aside, we leave for France tomorrow, gone 16 days.'
    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2
  • From Alan@nuh-uh@nope.com to comp.sys.mac.advocacy on Wed May 6 12:35:15 2026
    From Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

    On 2026-05-06 02:16, Tom Elam wrote:
    On 5/5/26 12:08 AM, Alan wrote:
    On 2026-05-04 14:33, Tom Elam wrote:
    On 5/4/26 4:47 PM, Alan wrote:
    Wow. Different applications behave differently.

    Very similar Mac App functions with different behavior. I'm not
    comparing Final Cut Pro to Adobe products here.

    Messaging and email aren't really that similar, Liarboy.

    Emails are discrete communications, and while you CAN now thread them
    in most email programs, it is an option. That's why most email
    conversations include quoted text.

    Messages comes out of SMS messaging which has been inherently threaded
    conversations for a very long time. Typically one DOESN'T delete
    individual messages in thread of messages and replies.

    Emails tend to be longer, and one organizes them into folders if
    they're worth keeping.  Emails are (usually) multiple paragraphs,
    meaning that an automatic <Send> on hitting return would be absurd.

    Messages are short messages dashed off and nobody is organizing them
    into folders. Since they're (often) a single sentence (or even just a
    sentence fragment)...

    ...and because they're delivered immediately, using <Return> as <Send>
    works very well. Even if you intended to write more than a single
    paragraph...

    ...(which you CAN do if you learn that <shift-Return> gives you a new
    line within a message)...

    ...the immediacy of the delivery means that the recipient will see
    them together anyway.

    In short, different use cases result in different interfaces.

    But, when you press Return in Mail you get a new line.

    Yes, you simpleton. Email has ALWAYS been designed around multiple line
    text. SMS is designed around SHORT text messages.

    Same in every
    other email app I have ever used.

    Duh.

    In Messages press Return and you send
    the message. That's why you need a Send button in Messages to be
    consistent with Mail. Both are means of carrying on a written conversation.

    But different KINDS of conversations.

    If they were both for the exact same thing, then there would be no point
    in having both in the first place, would there?

    But lets take a bit of a look around, shall we, simpleton?

    WhatsApp is a popular messaging platform...

    ...and it has no [Send] button. You type a message...

    ...and hit <return>

    How about... ...Telegram?

    You type a message...

    ...and hit <return>; no [Send] button.

    What about Snapchat (the web app)?

    You guessed it, simpleton: You use <return> to send...

    ...not a [Send] button.

    In the top 5 most popular messaging platforms, there are also "WeChat",
    and "Facebook Messenger".

    I'm not going to download WeChat to investigate, but I can tell you that Facebook Messenger, in its web interface (they've discontinued the Mac
    app)...

    Say it with me, simpleton!

    ...it has NO [SEND] BUTTON.

    That's right, you hit <return> to send.

    --- Synchronet 3.22a-Linux NewsLink 1.2